Modern Plane Irons

[D_W]

As you're only honing the thou or so at the end, what difference does the overall thickness of the blade make to it's honing? :? You're going to hone more steel off a thin blade that needs grinding than a freshly ground thick one.
I feel a sense of deja vu coming on again.

Grinding a fully hardened 1/4th inch piece of steel is a waste of time, too. Not just honing.

(unless we're just talking about stanley replacement irons).

Just grind it to as shallow an angle as you dare an hone as normal, you should get loads of sharpens out of it before you have to regrind. That's how my one and only woody I use for rough timber came and I haven't had to regrind yet.

Cant comment on replacement irons, all of my other planes (three) have standard irons which work well.

I've got two 1/4" irons from earlier days. They bed in an infill plane sole and they'd miss if I do that. The whole assembly is better set aside.

 

[Jacob]

.....
Just grind it to as shallow an angle as you dare an hone as normal, you should get loads of sharpens out of it before you have to regrind. ....

If you are going to grind a thick blade to make it a thinner you might as well start with thin blade in the first place. This makes honing quicker and you need not regrind it at all.
PMT -111 or whatever it is means nothing it's just a number dreamt up by Veritas advertising dept. No doubt it's perfectly OK but it won't make the slightest difference to your woodwork - unless it's pointlessly thick of course, in which case you have to waste time grinding it thin before you can hone.

 

[Jacob]

....
Almost all handtools sold today have cutters that are fit for purpose (the few that are inadequate tend to be at the VERY cheap end of the market).......

True but interestingly I had a go with a really rubbish plane (Indian Ess Vee 4) and the only good thing about it was the blade quality. It ain't rocket science!

 

[D_W]

.....
Just grind it to as shallow an angle as you dare an hone as normal, you should get loads of sharpens out of it before you have to regrind. ....

If you are going to grind a thick blade to make it a thinner you might as well start with thin blade in the first place. This makes honing quicker and you need not regrind it at all.
PMT -111 or whatever it is means nothing it's just a number dreamt up by Veritas advertising dept. No doubt it's perfectly OK but it won't make the slightest difference to your woodwork - unless it's pointlessly thick of course, in which case you have to waste time grinding it thin before you can hone.

I will say this for it (V11), it doesn't rust. It feels to me on a stone like 440C - they won't tell us what's in it. I'm not too concerned, I guess, unless it's carbon and iron and nothing else (and I know that's not the case).

Carbon steel doesn't do much rusting if it's sharpened on oilstones either, though.

 

[woodbrains]

I doubt I'd hone a pig sticker mortise chisel at 35* It's just unbelievable to me that people find this acceptable -- a steel that demands honing this high rather than it being the craftsman's choice for whatever reason.

I like cutting wood, not splitting like it was firewood for the stove.

Hello,

The angle for honing has never been the craftsmans choice, always dictated by the steel and the material to be planed. 25 deg primary with 30 deg secondary 'standard' for want of a better expression, only came about from many woodworkers over many years consensus that this was a happy medium between sharpness and edge longevity in average carbon steels and moderate woods. It is only ever considered a starting point and if timber or steel or both dictates differently then the craftsman modifies what he does to suit.

Bevel up planes are often sharpened at higher angles to prevent tear out in ornery woods. 38 degrees gives an effective pitch of 50 degrees in a 12 degree bedded plane. TBH 38 degrees is not really noticeably harder to push than 30, but has advantages in blade edge durability in A2 steel and reduces tear out. Experimenting is fun, too.

Mike.

 

[Trafalgar]

I doubt I'd hone a pig sticker mortise chisel at 35* It's just unbelievable to me that people find this acceptable -- a steel that demands honing this high rather than it being the craftsman's choice for whatever reason.

I like cutting wood, not splitting like it was firewood for the stove.

I have no clue why anyone would talk about sharpening pigstickers in a thread called "modern plane irons". Or what the proper angle to sharpen a chisel has to do with plane irons at all.

In response to this statement by another poster about a modern steel:

"The Veritas is fine at slightly higher angles, maybe 35deg..."

35*... modern steel? If this is the case there hasn't been any improvement in steel technology in at least 200 years.

 

[Trafalgar]

I doubt I'd hone a pig sticker mortise chisel at 35* It's just unbelievable to me that people find this acceptable -- a steel that demands honing this high rather than it being the craftsman's choice for whatever reason.

I like cutting wood, not splitting like it was firewood for the stove.

I have no clue why anyone would talk about sharpening pigstickers in a thread called "modern plane irons". Or what the proper angle to sharpen a chisel has to do with plane irons at all.

In response to this statement by another poster about a modern steel:

"The Veritas is fine at slightly higher angles, maybe 35deg..."

35*... modern steel? If this is the case there hasn't been any improvement in steel technology in at least 200 years. If you have to hone it this high I'd love to understand what's modern about it or *presumably* an improvement. Holds its edge a little longer than the shanks of yore?

 

[Benchwayze]

I think CJStanford was referring to narrow chisels, which are not much wider than a modern plane iron is thick. Maybe he thought that was the dimension referred to. Principle's the sme though. With my 1/8th inch chisel, I sharpen it until it cuts as it should. No grinding. Might as well be a Japanese chisels.

Plane irons? have found that a thick iron, like the LN blades suit me nicely. That doesn't mean I am about to throw away the modern irons for my Records though! (hammer)

 

[D_W]

I doubt I'd hone a pig sticker mortise chisel at 35* It's just unbelievable to me that people find this acceptable -- a steel that demands honing this high rather than it being the craftsman's choice for whatever reason.

I like cutting wood, not splitting like it was firewood for the stove.

I have no clue why anyone would talk about sharpening pigstickers in a thread called "modern plane irons". Or what the proper angle to sharpen a chisel has to do with plane irons at all.

In response to this statement by another poster about a modern steel:

"The Veritas is fine at slightly higher angles, maybe 35deg..."

35*... modern steel? If this is the case there hasn't been any improvement in steel technology in at least 200 years. If you have to hone it this high I'd love to understand what's modern about it or *presumably* an improvement. Holds its edge a little longer than the shanks of yore?

I don't know what you're planing, but every iron I've used holds up better at low 30s of degrees in a plane. It's just reality. I've got quite an appetite for purchasing (well, I used to), so I doubt anyone on here has tried more different stuff than me. Even the japanese irons don't hold up that well below 30 degrees, it's another "just is", and I guess they should hold up the best.

A lot of the old stanley material suggests 25 degree grinds (which I guess implies honing at that), but I think those general instructions are for carpenters tools. Maybe clear pine would work well at that, I don't know. knots don't, not even cherry does. I'm sure you can plane with it like that, but you can't finish plane with it like that and the reality is that a plane iron in a bevel down plane lasts longer at 34 degrees than it does at 25. No matter what the steel is.

 

[Trafalgar]

I doubt I'd hone a pig sticker mortise chisel at 35* It's just unbelievable to me that people find this acceptable -- a steel that demands honing this high rather than it being the craftsman's choice for whatever reason.

I like cutting wood, not splitting like it was firewood for the stove.

Hello,

The angle for honing has never been the craftsmans choice, always dictated by the steel and the material to be planed. 25 deg primary with 30 deg secondary 'standard' for want of a better expression, only came about from many woodworkers over many years consensus that this was a happy medium between sharpness and edge longevity in average carbon steels and moderate woods. It is only ever considered a starting point and if timber or steel or both dictates differently then the craftsman modifies what he does to suit.

Bevel up planes are often sharpened at higher angles to prevent tear out in ornery woods. 38 degrees gives an effective pitch of 50 degrees in a 12 degree bedded plane. TBH 38 degrees is not really noticeably harder to push than 30, but has advantages in blade edge durability in A2 steel and reduces tear out. Experimenting is fun, too.

Mike.

Yes, I generally agree. But if we still have to hone at angles over 30* then what is 'modern' about that steel? Sounds about the same as the old stuff doesn't it? Same song, second verse and all.

Changing the angle on a bevel up plane is a different animal, that's a move to get a higher angle of attack on a species that's tough to plane.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

I fail to see why a steel that needs to be sharpened at a different angle to another is regarded as a backwards step. It is just different. Looking at it from another angle, pun intended if you like, you could argue that leaving out vanadium in the steel, just so it can be honed a bit lower, robs it of abrasion resistance? Why would you want to have a less abrasion resistant steel, just so you can hone 30 degrees, that is just a number, harrumph. The whole point is, nothing is perfect, everything is a different compromise and Al it requires is a bit of understanding and application to the working methods employed. If you use a lot of abrasive woods, why wouldn't you find A2 or PM V11 an advance. If all you plane is pine, you would be right not to care one way or the other. I just observed what I did during use and hocks A2 is superior to LN and Veritas A2 , but all are capable of being used for the job in hand. I must say, the reason I bought my first Hock iron was because of some very ornery timber which would not plane with a standard Record iron. The edge just curled right over after a few strokes. In this instance I could probably have honed the regular iron at 35 or 40 degrees and it might have held up. As it was, the Hock iron worked well at 30 without the edge failing.

Mike.

 

[Trafalgar]

Probably makes no difference in a plane iron though in a bevel down iron there is a point at which you'll lose the clearance angle.

With chisels the angle makes a difference in control, force required to make a cut, and ease of use. 35* is a nonstarter for me. Even with a mortise chisel.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

I must say, I never hone any of my chisels more than 30 degrees. Sometimes less. I don't have any exotic steel chisels though. Don't have any pig stickers either! Maybe this is something I need to remedy, though I do have registered and sash mortice chisels that I don't use often enough.

Mike.

 

[Benchwayze]

Mike,

I bought my 1/8" chisel (Stanley) when I made a writing box, which entailed some smallie dovetails. It did all I asked of it, but I confess I rearely use it these days, as my woodwork moved over to a lot of larger jobs, and utilitarian stuff. These days it's almost dead stop, but as I said, I still have the 'pig-sticker' chisel. Every so often I need to open a jam jar, and now I can't break the seals with my gammy thumbs and wrists!

 

[G S Haydon]

Going right back to the question in hand I think most things are ok but I don't get on well with A2, it's hard and brittle and not best suited to my needs. The T10 stuff is lovely, it gets really sharp. It might loose and edge a bit quicker but a quick hone and go and you're off again.

If I had a plane I'd keep it standard trim, Stanley, Record, Veritas, Marples whoever made all the parts come together as a package. By the time you open mouth, fit new yokes, iron and cap irons it could be worth considering selling the plane at hand and buying the finished item.

I think also that most of our current crop of superbly made planes and their irons have more in common with panel planes and infill smoothers of the past, used for a quick truing up of a few finishing passes rather than rough sawn board to finish work. D_W has a good example of the merits of using the tools that were used for preparing boards from sawn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olEAFManCV8

 

[Bluekingfisher]

Thanks for all valuable advice and information, very interesting and useful.

It would seem my query has been answered, to a degree at least, 'horses for courses' I suspect and perhaps a little further experimenmtation is required on my part to discover which types of steels work best for the me. As a mere weekend warrior, the importance of which blades used is of no real concern. I suspect I should have known this from the start, different guys have a preferrence for a particular tool or means of tuning/setting it up. It has however has been interesting to receive the perspective of so many woodworkers.

Thanks to all.

David

 

[Benchwayze]

Horses for courses is right.

Plenty of people wonder about rounded bevels, and have a dig at Jacob. Fact is, his irons and chisels must be sharp; sharp enough to do the work he does. What more proof does anyone want?

Do it your own way, and if as a result, your tools are sharp enough, then you'll be doing it the right way!

If your edges will shave the hairs off a gnat's nadgers, fine, but when will you want to do that? :mrgreen:

Well I think that's right.

 

[Trafalgar]

Hello,

I must say, I never hone any of my chisels more than 30 degrees. Sometimes less. I don't have any exotic steel chisels though. Don't have any pig stickers either! Maybe this is something I need to remedy, though I do have registered and sash mortice chisels that I don't use often enough.

Mike.

As you should. There are plenty of classic sources that refer to 'thinly ground paring chisels' and in context clearly mean they are ground and honed at something less than the standard 25* grind and lift to around 30*. I have a couple of chisels ground somewhere around 15* - 18* and honed on that grind. I love them. Wouldn't be without them for love nor money. I always find it bizarre to learn of a craftsman who sets his or her chisels up at all about the same angle. What's the point in that? It's certainly not how the old guys did it from what I gather. One obviously doesn't just bash the hell out of a chisel honed this low but there are plenty of other times when they are just the ticket.

Manufacturers are thrilled that the buying public will buy in to honing at 35*. Just beyond thrilled. They're totally off the hook. It saves them a lot of time telling the uninitiated that the woodworking would probably be easier at angles less than that, but, arrgghh and gasp you'll have to learn to hone and do it quickly unless you like getting bogged down in theory and honing gear. They ring up their friendly metallurgist and ask for a steel that will hold its edge at 35*, and a wry smile comes across the face as our friendly metals specialist removes a dart from his top right drawer to throw it against a chart of various tool steels. Practically all of them will work at that angle. The rest is just an exercise in creating marketing buzz.

 

[Bluekingfisher]

Hello,

I must say, I never hone any of my chisels more than 30 degrees. Sometimes less. I don't have any exotic steel chisels though. Don't have any pig stickers either! Maybe this is something I need to remedy, though I do have registered and sash mortice chisels that I don't use often enough.

Mike.

As you should. There are plenty of classic sources that refer to 'thinly ground paring chisels' and in context clearly mean they are ground and honed at something less than the standard 25* grind and lift to around 30*. I have a couple of chisels ground somewhere around 15* - 18* and honed on that grind. I love them. Wouldn't be without them for love nor money. I always find it bizarre to learn of a craftsman who sets his or her chisels up at all about the same angle. What's the point in that? It's certainly not how the old guys did it from what I gather. One obviously doesn't just bash the hell out of a chisel honed this low but there are plenty of other times when they are just the ticket.

Manufacturers are thrilled that the buying public will hone at 35*. Just beyond thrilled. It saves them a lot of time telling the uninitiated that the woodworking would probably be easier at angles less than that, but, arrgghh and gasp you'll have to learn to hone and do it quickly unless you like getting bogged down in theory and honing gear. They ring up their friendly metallurgist and ask for a steel that will hold its edge at 35*, and a wry smile comes across the face as our friendly metals specialist removes a dart from his top right drawer to throw it against a chart of various tool steels. Practically all of them will work at that angle. The rest is just an exercise in creating marketing buzz.

So, with regards to the chisels you mention, the ones with low ground angles, are you talking of chisels of 1/4" or less?

David

 

[custard]

There are plenty of classic sources that refer to 'thinly ground paring chisels' and in context clearly mean they are ground and honed at something less than the standard 25* grind and lift to around 30*. I have a couple of chisels ground somewhere around 15* - 18* and honed on that grind. I love them. Wouldn't be without them for love nor money.

Same here. I've a few Ashley Iles dovetail chisels honed at a bit under 20 degrees plus a few Japanese paring chisels honed at a bit under 25 degrees. They only get used for softer woods, and only for paring. They leave a glassy finish with zero tear out and cut straight and true even in fiddly jobs like London pattern dovetails in rippled Sycamore, where a tiny bit of tear out around the gauge line would spoil the crispness of the joint. But if they so much as sniff a mallet, or even come close to end grain rosewood, then they curl up or great lumps chip off the edge!

But I wouldn't want to overstate the case, if you're trying to put your first tool kit together you really don't need stuff like this, you can go an awfully long way with just a few chisels honed at something vaguely around 30 degrees. And if you're about to make the final cuts on a tricky joint it's normally better that you pause and re-sharpen your tools rather than faff around finding your secret weapon chisels, because unless you use these tools a lot an "occasional" chisel like this will feel alien in your hands and you'll do more harm than good.