MFT - wossit all about?

[Tazmat43]

Still trying to find a demo of somebody doing something useful on one of these very expensive tables with holes in things.
Total failure so far.
Is it just about buying attractive gadgets?
What can they do which can't be done on a normal bench, or even a B&D workmate (£44 B&Q) and a lot easier too?
Mystified.
This seems typical, he doesn't rate it much himself even though he's some sort of enthusiast:

I'd just buy the Parf Guide System from Axminster Tools £200 for it and you can build as many tops as you like and put Dog holes in legs etc with it, although I have found his pricing system questionable, comes out with a Parf reamer and says he doesn't want it to cost the earth, he wanted it to be under £10, I think it was £7 something on release, and he did a video on YT for it 3 or so weeks later he'd pulled the video, completely and it was then about £14.
I lost all respect for the man with that trick tbh and I brought the ruddy System last year but still haven't used it yet, but the results are undeniable, just won't buy anything else of his now, having done a video on his site waxing lyrical about pricing it for the ordinary Woodworker, then doubling the price, just speaks volumes to me to be honest, but it will say you a grand and you can use it as many times as you like, and you can buy other add on's for repeatable cuts etc and spacing cuts etc. Hope this helps it's all amazing stuff, just doing that with the pricing that turned me right off buying anything else of that, I just call it as I see it, even my other half actually paid attention to me when I showed it to her at the time, which never happens when talking Woodworking lol, so I must morally be in the right haha, as she was going to buy me one with it being so cheap and I showed her the original vid on the day he released it lol, but as I said it is a brilliant system and you can reuse it time and time again when you're looking at £150 to £200 quid for 1 pre drilled 1200x600 top I think size wise, so the second thing you ever use it for and it's already paid for itself haha again hope the idea helps

 

[Lonsdale73]

Thanks for that. Says it all really. Not for me. Some expensive kit there!

I think we all knew that from your initial post.

 

[Jacob]

I think we all knew that from your initial post.

I thought there might be more to it. I sometimes use the same/similar system but just drilling holes as and when needed; marked out with a tape measure - you don't need a special ruler.
I don't see the point of pre-drilling though I recognise it could suit some operators.
You don't need special things to drop in the holes either - a bit of dowel will do.
Can't see the need for the rickety paste table either.
Nor the expensive clamps - I often use "gravity clamps"; basically heavy weights - one is a trad 5kg cast iron with a loop handle, others are tins with lead melted in 3 to 4 kg, and other odds and sods - a 12" length of railway line is good, and doubles as a mini anvil.

 

[Distinterior]

I don't see the point of pre-drilling though I recognise it could suit some operators.
You don't need special things to drop in the holes either - a bit of dowel will do.
Can't see the need for the rickety paste table either.
Nor the expensive clamps - I often use "gravity clamps"; basically heavy weights - one is a trad 5kg cast iron with a loop handle, others are tins with lead melted in 3 to 4 kg, and other odds and sods - a 12" length of railway line is good, and doubles as a mini anvil.

......All good and useful ideas Jacob and would appear to be quite innovative back in 1921, ....but this is 2021 and times & technology have moved on.

It is clear that you think the system isn't for you and of course, that's fine.

But, the majority of the other posters on this thread of yours, happen to think it is good and fits in with the type of work and projects that some of us make.

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

I lost all respect for the man with that trick tbh and I brought the ruddy System last year but still haven't used it yet, but the results are undeniable, just won't buy anything else of his now, having done a video on his site waxing lyrical about pricing it for the ordinary Woodworker, then doubling the price, just speaks volumes to me to be honest,

That seems a little harsh - manufacturing and metal costs could well have increased by that much (last 6 months in particular have been ridiculous).

 

[MikeK]

What's the machine with the red 'air scoop'?

It is a partially disassembled Holzmann HOB260NL Planer/Thicknesser. The HOB260NL appears to be similar to the Axminster AC250PT and the Bernardo ADH 250P machines and I would not be surprised if they are built at the same factory.

This is the only shop tool I regret buying. It is a poor design, crudely made, difficult to align, and the planer tables do not remain coplanar very long. In my opinion, the HOB260NL would be better suited as a boat anchor than a P/T.

 

[Spectric]

It is also very very similar to the Record PT107, the drive train with the belt from the motor, chain for the rollers and clutch lever next to your E stop is too much of a coincidence, must come out of the same factory. Agree that it is somewhat crude and has alignment issues that seem to laugh at your attempts to correct, but fitting the Esta blade system does at least give you three aligned blades and so you only have to fight the tables. ESTA Knife System .

Not sure how long it would last as a boat anchor, maybe better in freshwater rather than the sea so it corrodes slower.

 

[Droogs]

From the few German woodies I know the reputation of Holzmannn is that they are the FRG's version of Fox and Charnwood

 

[Jameshow]

That's Timothy Wilmot, very talented chap, Festool used that design of his to create their MW 1000 workbench.

https://www.festool.co.uk/products/...mobile-workshop/203802---mw-1000-set#Overview

Wow that's one expensive shopping trolley!!

 

[Recky33]

Jacob, consider it as a 700mm chop saw with clamping options and an exact cut line

 

[MikeK]

It is also very very similar to the Record PT107, the drive train with the belt from the motor, chain for the rollers and clutch lever next to your E stop is too much of a coincidence, must come out of the same factory. Agree that it is somewhat crude and has alignment issues that seem to laugh at your attempts to correct, but fitting the Esta blade system does at least give you three aligned blades and so you only have to fight the tables. ESTA Knife System .

Not sure how long it would last as a boat anchor, maybe better in freshwater rather than the sea so it corrodes slower.

If I can find a solution to the table alignment, I'll invest in the ESTA system. As it is now, the knives are the least of the problems with this machine.

From the few German woodies I know the reputation of Holzmannn is that they are the FRG's version of Fox and Charnwood

The Charnwood W583 appears to be the twin of the HOB260NL.

 

[Droogs]

Wht do companies keep rebadging and churning out these badly designed and flawed machines. If they listened to the feedback about all the problems and corrected them (and it wouldn't cost much) they would have people lining up to buy their stuff

 

[Jacob]

Wow that's one expensive shopping trolley!!

New technology - it'll do as a paste table too!

 

[DBT85]

Wht do companies keep rebadging and churning out these badly designed and flawed machines. If they listened to the feedback about all the problems and corrected them (and it wouldn't cost much) they would have people lining up to buy their stuff

The problem is that they are all trying to compete with everyone else selling the same rebadged churned out crap at the same price point. Nobody wants to charge 5-10% more to make improvements as they will be worried people won't pay the extra. In addition, if you're the only one asking for those changes on the production line, its going to cost more than just 5 or 10%. People, largely, don't want to pay more. Look at how many people are fine with and Indesit washing machine rather than a Miele one that is often at least double the price. They don't care that its got a cast iron counterweight or a stainless steel drum and a myriad other improvements, they just want to get a new machine and pay as little as possible.

 

[Jacob]

If I can find a solution to the table alignment, ....

Table alignment on my Minimax Combi was down to fine shims in appropriate places - in other words carefully set up before sale. I guess they'd have lasers etc to say what size shim in which places, otherwise it'd have to be a very tedious trial and error job, lifting and replacing heavy bits of metal several times.

 

[Lonsdale73]

As a hand tool woodworker who doesn't own a tracksaw or circular saw and never uses sheet goods it seems I would gain little from an MFT but I am intrigued about one possible use. Would it help with clamping things for glue-ups?

Yes

 

[WoodYewToo]

The problem is that they are all trying to compete with everyone else selling the same rebadged churned out rubbish at the same price point. Nobody wants to charge 5-10% more to make improvements as they will be worried people won't pay the extra. In addition, if you're the only one asking for those changes on the production line, its going to cost more than just 5 or 10%. People, largely, don't want to pay more. Look at how many people are fine with and Indesit washing machine rather than a Miele one that is often at least double the price. They don't care that its got a cast iron counterweight or a stainless steel drum and a myriad other improvements, they just want to get a new machine and pay as little as possible.

For many people, it's easier to see the immediate saving (of buying cheap)... than the long-term saving of buying 'wise'.
(That said, if one hasn't got sufficient cash/credit to buy a decent machine... that can be an insurmountable issue).

Our Miele washing machine is nearly 23 years old - and it's had a hard working life.
In all those years, I've replaced one drive belt and two shock absorbers... total cost of parts: £50.

 

[shed9]

Been watching this with some interest, even the FOG members will argue against them, albeit in smaller numbers. I've had three MFT/3's in the past 7-8 years, kept two and still regret selling the first. They are expensive comparative to other off-the-shelf options and DIY equivalents but once you use them and find that niche that works for you it will all make sense. Yes there are more cost efficient solutions but equally there are significantly more expensive options as well, it's a tool that fits a certain user and use. As others have said, you get what you pay for.

 

[Spectric]

If I can find a solution to the table alignment,

I have some issues with my PT107 that needs to be addressed, something must move or change once the tables have been lifted for thicknesser mode so be interesting to see how you solve your problems. You have heavy pivots on one side and then the tables sit on 6mm bolts the other, just seems to small and the locking levers exert a reasonable force to hold them down, do you notice much of a change between unlocked and locked.

 

[MikeK]

Table alignment on my Minimax Combi was down to fine shims in appropriate places - in other words carefully set up before sale. I guess they'd have lasers etc to say what size shim in which places, otherwise it'd have to be a very tedious trial and error job, lifting and replacing heavy bits of metal several times.

I don't have any problem aligning the slider table on my Minimax SC2C. I imagine the combo version is tedious, but can be done with success. I aligned my slider table twice since it was commissioned because I moved it around in my shop. The first time, it took me about eight hours to adjust the sliding table for the correct toe out and height above the fixed table as well as the toe out for the rip fence. The second time, I removed the slider to check the bearing surfaces because I thought there was a problem (there wasn't a problem), and had it back and ready for use in four hours. Since adding the parallel positioner on the sliding table, I haven't used the rip fence.

I learned to hover, autorotate, and was ready to solo in a Robinson R44 helicopter in less time than I've spent fiddling with just the thicknesser table on the HOB260NL. After three days, it still isn't usable and I haven't even started on the planer tables. It is such a poor design with too much movement as the thicknesser table height is changed. I lowered the table to 17cm and was going to adjust the pedestal grub screws to make the table parallel with the cutter block, but the grub screws were missing. A quick trip to the hardware store for four M4 grub screws. Then I raised the table to 15cm and the right side is lower than the left side by 0.008-inch. At 10cm, the right side is lower than the left by 0.020-inch.

As if this could not be worse, all of these measurements were taken without using the pedestal lock. When I lock the pedestal at the 10cm height, the left side drops 0.007-inch and the right side changes from 0.020 to 0.006-inch. At the 17cm height, the left side drops 0.006-inch and the right side raises by 0.007-inch. After disassembling the pedestal and lift mechanism, I discovered one of the problems with the lock and was able to make a slight improvement, but the table angle still changes when locked. I can make a new friction lock that works on the height adjustment shaft and won't touch the pedestal, but since the pedestal level is inconsistent at different heights, this would be a waste of time.

I think I am done with this machine and will look for a Hammer A3-31or SCM FS30. I would consider the DeWalt DW735, but it is not available in 230V 50Hz except in Australia and Russia.