MCB s wanted (Repost )

[Thingybob]

I originaly posted in how to,s better here i think , Can any one tell me an alternative MCB to a Lewden . Do screwfix or toolstation have compatable mcb to fit a Curve A3CUR D10 consumer unit ie that fits the din rail and buzz bar , or failing that a good supplier on the net for Lewden mcbs

 

[Spectric]

Din rail is standard, but unless you have the right test equipment then adding to a consumer unit or changing a protective device is not DIY. I would also be looking at RCBO's rather than MCB's . Personally I use Schneider products, but have you tried City Electrical factors or TLC .

 

[Sideways]

And every manufacturers instructions will tell you to stick to the same (their) MCB's in a consumer unit.
It's pedantic but the boxes and devices are tested and certified as a system, not in a mix and match with anyone elses.
Newlec used to sell Lewden / Palazzoli. Might be worth a look there.

 

[h-magic]

Got to ask yourself why would you want to fit a different type?

 

[Thingybob]

Got to ask yourself why would you want to fit a different type?

Ease of purchase Not replacing but additional units required for power in garrage and lighting

 

[Thingybob]

To explain reason for post, I am planing my workshop in the garage and at present there are two twin sockets in there and lighting run from same circuit and all powered from ground floor ring main so was working out cost of materials for job new CU in garage or new circuit from existing house CU , I like to supply my own materials and have the job done by sparky I had my own buisness and know the mark up game and i never told a customer they needed teak or oak for a garden fence when treated pine would do

 

[morqthana]

And every manufacturers instructions will tell you to stick to the same (their) MCB's in a consumer unit.
It's pedantic but the boxes and devices are tested and certified as a system,

One man's pedantry is another man's Wiring Regulations requirement for consumer units to be type tested assemblies if you want to take advantage of the conditional rating of <16kA devices as 16kA ones.

536.4.203 Integration of devices and components
The relevant part of the BS EN 61439 series shall be applied to the integration of mechanical and electrical devices and components, e.g. circuit-breakers, control devices, busbars into an empty enclosure or existing low voltage assembly. In low voltage assemblies to the BS EN 61439 series, e.g. consumer units, distribution boards, incorporated devices and components shall only be those declared suitable according to the assembly manufacturer’s instructions or literature.
NOTE 1: The use of individual components complying with their respective product standard(s) does not indicate their compatibility when installed with other components in a low voltage switchgear and controlgear assembly.
NOTE 2: Incorporated components inside the assembly can be from different manufacturers. It is essential that all incorporated components should have had their compatibility for the final enclosed arrangements verified by the original manufacturer of the assembly and be assembled in accordance with their instructions e.g. the consumer unit, distribution board manufacturer. The original manufacturer is the organization that carried out the original design and the associated verification of the low voltage switchgear and controlgear assembly to the relevant part of the BS EN 61439 series. If an assembly deviates from its original manufacturer’s instructions, or includes components not included in the original verification, the person introducing the deviation becomes the original manufacturer with the corresponding obligations.



536.4.201 Fault current (short-circuit) ratings
The relevant fault current (short-circuit) rating of the assembly should be equal to or exceed the maximum prospective fault current at the point of connection to the system. The terminology used to define the short-circuit rating of an assembly is given in the BS EN 61439 series as follows:- rated short-time withstand current, Icw- rated peak withstand current, Ipk- rated conditional short-circuit current, Icc.

The assembly manufacturer’s ratings and instructions shall be taken into account.

For an installation with a 230V single-phase supply rated up to 100A that is under the control of ordinary persons, switchgear and controlgear assemblies shall either comply with BS EN 61439-3 having a suitable fault current (short-circuit) rating for the maximum prospective fault current at the point of connection to the system or be a consumer unit incorporating components and protective devices specified by the manufacturer complying with BS EN 61439-3, including the 16kA conditional short-circuit test described in Annex ZB of the standard.
NOTE: When the single-phase PSCC value of 19.6 kA is cited from Engineering Recommendation P25, the 16 kA conditional rating described in Annex ZB of BS EN 61439-3, for incoming service equipment, will satisfy design requirements where the service cable is at least 2 metres in length.

I have highlighted the parts which require compliance with Manufacturer’s Instructions.

Re BS EN 60439-3 Annex ZB: BEAMA Technical Bulletin - Consumer Unit 16 kA Conditional Rating Application

 

[morqthana]

I had my own buisness and know the mark up game

Presumably then you know that you need to generate a certain amount of income from the business, and that if you are denied making some of it from mark-ups on materials you have absolutely no choice but to make all of it from labour charges.

Your sparks costs don't go down if you take away his materials profit.

Plus he won't give you a warranty on parts & materials you provide.

 

[DRC]

I originaly posted in how to,s better here i think , Can any one tell me an alternative MCB to a Lewden . Do screwfix or toolstation have compatable mcb to fit a Curve A3CUR D10 consumer unit ie that fits the din rail and buzz bar , or failing that a good supplier on the net for Lewden mcbs

The DIN rail in all consumer units now should be the same spec so most MCBs should be a good fit may be some minor mods to the cover of CU to allow alignment of different bodies of MCBs.

 

[MikeJhn]

Ease of purchase Not replacing but additional units required for power in garrage and lighting

To get over the manufacturers compliance pedantic's, Supply you garage from a separate single RCD enclosure off your main board with SWA to a garage consumer unit, TT the garage.

 

[Thingybob]

One man's pedantry is another man's Wiring Regulations requirement for consumer units to be type tested assemblies if you want to take advantage of the conditional rating of <16kA devices as 16kA ones.

536.4.203 Integration of devices and components
The relevant part of the BS EN 61439 series shall be applied to the integration of mechanical and electrical devices and components, e.g. circuit-breakers, control devices, busbars into an empty enclosure or existing low voltage assembly. In low voltage assemblies to the BS EN 61439 series, e.g. consumer units, distribution boards, incorporated devices and components shall only be those declared suitable according to the assembly manufacturer’s instructions or literature.
NOTE 1: The use of individual components complying with their respective product standard(s) does not indicate their compatibility when installed with other components in a low voltage switchgear and controlgear assembly.
NOTE 2: Incorporated components inside the assembly can be from different manufacturers. It is essential that all incorporated components should have had their compatibility for the final enclosed arrangements verified by the original manufacturer of the assembly and be assembled in accordance with their instructions e.g. the consumer unit, distribution board manufacturer. The original manufacturer is the organization that carried out the original design and the associated verification of the low voltage switchgear and controlgear assembly to the relevant part of the BS EN 61439 series. If an assembly deviates from its original manufacturer’s instructions, or includes components not included in the original verification, the person introducing the deviation becomes the original manufacturer with the corresponding obligations.



536.4.201 Fault current (short-circuit) ratings
The relevant fault current (short-circuit) rating of the assembly should be equal to or exceed the maximum prospective fault current at the point of connection to the system. The terminology used to define the short-circuit rating of an assembly is given in the BS EN 61439 series as follows:- rated short-time withstand current, Icw- rated peak withstand current, Ipk- rated conditional short-circuit current, Icc.

The assembly manufacturer’s ratings and instructions shall be taken into account.

For an installation with a 230V single-phase supply rated up to 100A that is under the control of ordinary persons, switchgear and controlgear assemblies shall either comply with BS EN 61439-3 having a suitable fault current (short-circuit) rating for the maximum prospective fault current at the point of connection to the system or be a consumer unit incorporating components and protective devices specified by the manufacturer complying with BS EN 61439-3, including the 16kA conditional short-circuit test described in Annex ZB of the standard.
NOTE: When the single-phase PSCC value of 19.6 kA is cited from Engineering Recommendation P25, the 16 kA conditional rating described in Annex ZB of BS EN 61439-3, for incoming service equipment, will satisfy design requirements where the service cable is at least 2 metres in length.

I have highlighted the parts which require compliance with Manufacturer’s Instructions.

Re BS EN 60439-3 Annex ZB: BEAMA Technical Bulletin - Consumer Unit 16 kA Conditional Rating Application

Perfect answer to warrant buying Lewden mcbs that was my question in the first place so just have to sourse them thank you

 

[Thingybob]

Presumably then you know that you need to generate a certain amount of income from the business, and that if you are denied making some of it from mark-ups on materials you have absolutely no choice but to make all of it from labour charges.

Your sparks costs don't go down if you take away his materials profit.

Plus he won't give you a warranty on parts & materials you provide.

Within reason not exorbitant mark ups projects have rissen in price so much this year and if like me you no longer have flexable income then you have to save money where you can it all comes down to trust in the end which is built up over time and as im new to part of country i have to make new contacks in trades with that in mind

 

[Sideways]

Relationships and transparency are super important. A tradesman has cost in ordering, collecting, and if need be in warranting parts that they supply. A mark up to cover that isn't unreasonable. But what about when they don't tell you they are getting a 30% trade discount ? Is 43% mark up on their costs reasonable ?
The guy who is open about costs and profits is more likely to get my business but it takes time to learn what the costs really are.

Some materials are better sourced yourself. You save the installers time and aggro sourcing them (supply chain issues are pain in the *ss for them right now) and if they fail, you have a direct claim against the supplier.

 

[Spectric]

When I priced up a job it was all inclusive and depending how big it was I would pass on some of the trade discount as a sweetener. I would also not use customer supplied basic's unless they had the receipt and it was suitable, items like lights etc were better sourced by the customer. Some jobs you would have to accept going the extra mile if it was not part of the customers job but you felt it needed to be done if for no other reason than peace of mind. The bottom line is to be open and honest with your customers so that they get the job done right and don't feel hard done by or overcharged.

 

[Thingybob]

When I priced up a job it was all inclusive and depending how big it was I would pass on some of the trade discount as a sweetener. I would also not use customer supplied basic's unless they had the receipt and it was suitable, items like lights etc were better sourced by the customer. Some jobs you would have to accept going the extra mile if it was not part of the customers job but you felt it needed to be done if for no other reason than peace of mind. The bottom line is to be open and honest with your customers so that they get the job done right and don't feel hard done by or overcharged.

Then you get thier work in future same with garages did the work need doing or profiteering my old garage man in Manchester would ring me with findings and offer an alternitive if possible then leave decision up to me he got all my work for 20 years so he has a steady workload i would recomend him to friends and workmates and then they would recomend him on, Reversed loyalty

 

[MikeJhn]

Then you get thier work in future same with garages did the work need doing or profiteering my old garage man in Manchester would ring me with findings and offer an alternitive if possible then leave decision up to me he got all my work for 20 years so he has a steady workload i would recomend him to friends and workmates and then they would recomend him on, Reversed loyalty

But did he always use the Original Manufacturers parts as specified and recommended by the manufacture.

 

[Thingybob]

But did he always use the Original Manufacturers parts as specified and recommended by the manufacture.

Only if it was totaly necessary or a safety issue , I buy a car to use and get me from A to B not as a showmobile for the neighbours

 

[Thingybob]

Only if it was totaly necessary or a safety issue , I buy a car to use and get me from A to B not as a showmobile for the neighbours

Ps Never bought a car that was in warranty only my work van and never had an issue with that

 

[morqthana]

The DIN rail in all consumer units now should be the same spec so most MCBs should be a good fit may be some minor mods to the cover of CU to allow alignment of different bodies of MCBs.

Yes, they will all clip onto the rail.

What about bus-bar alignment, given different heights of MCB bodies, and differences in the fore-aft positions of the terminals?

What about comb vs fork busbars? Or ones bent through 90°, or with insulation that fouls the MCB body?