Marples 4 1/2 plane rebuild

[Scarlet Lancer]

Hi Stan nice to hear from you.

I am going to our local steel Stockist again on Monday to take in the various tote/knob handle fixing rods from most of the manufacturers as my local stockist AJ Andrews will check them with a micrometer for me. They carry metric and imperial stock. I started off with just the 1/4 inch 20 tpi and the rod best suited 1/4 inch imperial. Now this 1/4 inch rod as you can see in the photo is cut with a new BSW die 1/4 20. The 20 tpi as I am sure you know is teeth per inch. Now this size is stated buy “those who know“ is in fact too big for Marples Planes, but has proved to me it is one step up than the one we need. Marples tote fixing bolts are truly 5/16 BSW 18 tpi. On Monday I will be picking up smaller rod sizes from and including 5/16 inch. So short story…. Hang on for me and I will give you the details for all Marples threads and rods. I will take this a little further for you. All of the machine screws which screw into the sole/base go into a rather short hole which means a pointed “tap” will not give you a thread all the way to the bottom of the hole. This issue is over come by using a flat ended tap.
Another myth is that all of the American manufacturers use their own made up thread. Not correct they used actually use UNC and UNF indicating coarse thread and fine thread. Coarse holds much stronger and fine is much tighter for gases or water to stop as much leakage as possible.

Cost, again you have seen the £15 and upwards on eBay well you an make your own with a 9ft long rod for as little as £2.65 including VAT. So I will be in touch next week.

One valuable piece of info is…..do not use a standard die to clean a thread as you will most likely start another thread over the top of the original. Look for the octagonal dies these are especially used to clean and tidy threads and their shape is to be used with a spanner.

 

[IWW]

..... I will get back to restoring a 1925 Stanley #3 which is quite badly rusted. I looked at taps and dies for the original size but they are too expensive. I am thinking of using metric sizes to make new rods....

Stan, I'm not sure that's a good approach. Tapping a new thread in the base for the tote stud is a tricky business. You will need a bottoming tap to get even a couple of turns of good thread in the shallow hole. Starting those on-course is quite difficult, even for the experienced, the usual way is to use a full-taper or intermediate tap to get as much thread as possible before using the bottoming tap to extend the thread as far as it will go.

The studs on all old Stanleys have 12-20 threads, the nominal O.D. is 7/32" or ~5.5mm, not a common size for ironmongers to stock, but down in my part of the world at least, you can buy 5.5mm nails from the hardware store that do nicely. Ordinary nails are soft & tap easily (and also peen well as rivets).

There are a number of approaches to repairing/replacing damaged studs on old planes. First of all, determine if it is necesary! The tote studs on all of the old planes I've encountered seem to be a very sloppy fit, but hold fine, so don't get too worried if the original stud wobbles 4 or 5 degrees, it will most likely be perfectly ok.

However, if some person has used excessive force trying to tighten a "loose" stud & stripped it, you do have a problem. Usually one or the other thread (internal or external) gives up & in my experience it is most often the stud that comes off the worse. Obviously, if the internal thread is still largely intact, it's a relatively simple matter of making a new stud (that is, if you happen to have 12-20 taps & dies or a metal lathe capable of cutting that size thread).
If the internal thread is stripped to the point it won't hold a new stud, you have a larger problem. I've seen one case where it was dealt with by brazing the stud in, but there are a number of less heroic methods. Engineers would use something like a "Helicoil" but you will search a long way to find one in the correct size for a plane tote. Another "cure" I've seen is to force 1/4" NC thread in. This is quite feasible if you reduce the diameter of the stud a little because the pitch matches, unlike the slightly smaller M6 which is ~25 tpi). The trouble is, you still need to fit the nut on the other end. That is a bit deeper than the stud hole, & brass is more amenable to being re-tapped to match a 1/4". The stud hole through the tote itself is usually over-size & will take the 1/4 stud without alteration. Or if you have access to a lathe, you can reduce the diameter of the upper part of the stud to 7/32" & thread it to the correct size (a much better option, imo).

Drilling & tapping for an over-size stud is best left to someone who has the gear & knowledge. Cast iron is very brittle stuff & it's too easy to make a complete mess of it, so unless you are sure of what you are about, I would advise strongly against trying it.

My advice would be to proceed carefully, whatever you do, I've seen more than one nice old plane meet a tragic end at the hands of over-enthusiastic & under-experienced "restorers".......
Cheers,
Ian

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Hi Stan nice to hear from you.

I am going to our local steel Stockist again on Monday to take in the various tote/knob handle fixing rods from most of the manufacturers as my local stockist AJ Andrews will check them with a micrometer for me.

S J Andrews? You must be close to me.

 

[Scarlet Lancer]

Stan, I'm not sure that's a good approach. Tapping a new thread in the base for the tote stud is a tricky business. You will need a bottoming tap to get even a couple of turns of good thread in the shallow hole. Starting those on-course is quite difficult, even for the experienced, the usual way is to use a full-taper or intermediate tap to get as much thread as possible before using the bottoming tap to extend the thread as far as it will go.

The studs on all old Stanleys have 12-20 threads, the nominal O.D. is 7/32" or ~5.5mm, not a common size for ironmongers to stock, but down in my part of the world at least, you can buy 5.5mm nails from the hardware store that do nicely. Ordinary nails are soft & tap easily (and also peen well as rivets).

There are a number of approaches to repairing/replacing damaged studs on old planes. First of all, determine if it is necesary! The tote studs on all of the old planes I've encountered seem to be a very sloppy fit, but hold fine, so don't get too worried if the original stud wobbles 4 or 5 degrees, it will most likely be perfectly ok.

However, if some person has used excessive force trying to tighten a "loose" stud & stripped it, you do have a problem. Usually one or the other thread (internal or external) gives up & in my experience it is most often the stud that comes off the worse. Obviously, if the internal thread is still largely intact, it's a relatively simple matter of making a new stud (that is, if you happen to have 12-20 taps & dies or a metal lathe capable of cutting that size thread).
If the internal thread is stripped to the point it won't hold a new stud, you have a larger problem. I've seen one case where it was dealt with by brazing the stud in, but there are a number of less heroic methods. Engineers would use something like a "Helicoil" but you will search a long way to find one in the correct size for a plane tote. Another "cure" I've seen is to force 1/4" NC thread in. This is quite feasible if you reduce the diameter of the stud a little because the pitch matches, unlike the slightly smaller M6 which is ~25 tpi). The trouble is, you still need to fit the nut on the other end. That is a bit deeper than the stud hole, & brass is more amenable to being re-tapped to match a 1/4". The stud hole through the tote itself is usually over-size & will take the 1/4 stud without alteration. Or if you have access to a lathe, you can reduce the diameter of the upper part of the stud to 7/32" & thread it to the correct size (a much better option, imo).

Drilling & tapping for an over-size stud is best left to someone who has the gear & knowledge. Cast iron is very brittle stuff & it's too easy to make a complete mess of it, so unless you are sure of what you are about, I would advise strongly against trying it.

My advice would be to proceed carefully, whatever you do, I've seen more than one nice old plane meet a tragic end at the hands of over-enthusiastic & under-experienced "restorers".......
Cheers,
Ian

Stan I agree with Ian on this angle. What I will suggest next is an idea I came up with for a friend a few months ago. I have seen (indeed bought and got my money back on eBay twice.) The mouth on one marples plane had broken clean through in two pieces and someone had welded it solidly but far from tidy another was the same. To weld cast iron correctly you would have to heat the entire item prior to welding. Before I post this message I will go out to my workshop and take a photo for you. I have a nice little inverter welder and if you would like me to weld a hole or two I would as it is scrap I can also re drill and tap a new hole or indeed if you pay post I would send it to you to experiment with it. Another way you could go is with hard white metal melted in to the holes and then drill and tap again I have some and could post you a couple of lengths, it has many uses including this kind of venture. On Ian’s comment regarding loose thread I also have a couple and as they tighten they hold very well.
Edited…I also had a broken handle exactly like yours I thoroughly cleaned it with hot water and washing up liquid rinsed and left to almost dry. I then used epoxy Gorilla glue which needs moisture to activate. It was hard as steel and I use it normally. Nail varnish to colour in over the glue mark and varnish ( watch carefully for the wrath of the wife). There is always a way around a problem. Before you start using a grinder on the sole use a buffing wheel with black polishing soap that colour is particularly for buffing steel and cast iron. I have just been notified that a set of UNC and UNF thread gages are out for delivery from Amazon so I can check all Stanley threads for you.
And another confusion for us all. British standard Whitworth and American UNC and UNF are all almost the same, really! Two tote/nobs screws from a Stanley plane checked in the past with gages and again just now gave a perfect match to BSW 1/4 20. Could it really be? A few moments ago my delivery arrived from Amazon a new set of American UNC and UNF. Out with the UNC 20 perfect fit for the two tote screws. Now I start to pull my hair out! Then Mr Google came up with this photo of tread info. The crime solved. Having been a copper when I left the Army I suspect everything I hear until I prove it. I don’t think I can take this any further.
Stan I hope you are better very soon my son had Covid recently, not not nice. Sadly the first day of the first lockdown mother-in-law living with us fell and broke her hip into Royal Cornwall Hospital new one fitted a few days later hospital called sorry she caught Covid in here and passed away. We never saw her again after she was admitted. Thankfully most of us are vaccinated now.

 

[Stan]

Thanks all. Looks good. Once covid leaves and my mind becomes less fuddled I will look at it again. At the moment I have banned myself from working until I think straighter, to save me creating a monster that I later have to "uncreate".

 

[Scarlet Lancer]

Thanks all. Looks good. Once covid leaves and my mind becomes less fuddled I will look at it again. At the moment I have banned myself from working until I think straighter, to save me creating a monster that I later have to "uncreate".

 

[Scarlet Lancer]

S J Andrews? You must be close to me.

Good morning Phil I live in Treslothan whea`re a bouts are you.

 

[Vann]

...Another myth is that all of the American manufacturers use their own made up thread. Not correct they used actually use UNC and UNF indicating coarse thread and fine thread...

I'm sorry but I believe you are wrong.

You cannot possibly be correct as UNC/UNF were formalised in 1949. Mr Bailey began making his planes in 1869 and Stanley has used the same threads throughout (until they changed to metric in the 1990s). There were no standard threads back then, with the exception of Whitworth threads - but these were not in anything like universal use at that time.

But assuming that maybe you are correct, what are the following threads?:
- Frog screws - 7/32" 20 tpi. These are not BSW nor UNC. BSF has 28 tpi.
- Frog adjusting screw - 1/4" 24 tpi. 1/4" BSW and UNC are 20 tpi. BSF has 26 tpi. UNF has 28tpi. UNEF has 32 tpi. BSCycle is 26tpi. Brass pipe thread is 26 tpi. Model Engineer's is 40 tpi.
- Lever cap screw - 9/32" 24tpi. I can't find this size in any Standard I've looked at so far, except Model Engineer's at 32 tpi.
- Brass adjusting nut - 9/32" 24tpi LH. ditto.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Vann]

...Two tote/nobs screws from a Stanley plane checked in the past with gages and again just now gave a perfect match to BSW 1/4 20. Could it really be? A few moments ago my delivery arrived from Amazon a new set of American UNC and UNF. Out with the UNC 20 perfect fit for the two tote screws...

The tote and knob screws, like the frog screws, are 7/32" 20 tpi. Once the hole is flogged out a 1/4" 20 tpi tap should fit nicely. But then screw it your 7/32 stud and screw it up tight, and you'll strip it right out of the hole (probably causing further damage in the process).

Cheers, Vann.

 

[J-G]

You cannot possibly be correct as UNC/UNF were formalised in 1949. Mr Bailey began making his planes in 1869 and Stanley has used the same threads throughout (until they changed to metric in the 1990s). There were no standard threads back then, with the exception of Whitworth threads - but these were not in anything like universal use at that time.

You are mostly correct Vann but in fact the 'SELLERS' thread form (and Standard) was in use from 1864 - though it didn't really become common 'til the 1880s. It 'morfed' into the Unified Standard in November 1948. The Whitworth Standard had been in use since 1841.

 

[Scarlet Lancer]

I'm sorry but I believe you are wrong.

You cannot possibly be correct as UNC/UNF were formalised in 1949. Mr Bailey began making his planes in 1869 and Stanley has used the same threads throughout (until they changed to metric in the 1990s). There were no standard threads back then, with the exception of Whitworth threads - but these were not in anything like universal use at that time.

But assuming that maybe you are correct, what are the following threads?:
- Frog screws - 7/32" 20 tpi. These are not BSW nor UNC. BSF has 28 tpi.
- Frog adjusting screw - 1/4" 24 tpi. 1/4" BSW and UNC are 20 tpi. BSF has 26 tpi. UNF has 28tpi. UNEF has 32 tpi. BSCycle is 26tpi. Brass pipe thread is 26 tpi. Model Engineer's is 40 tpi.
- Lever cap screw - 9/32" 24tpi. I can't find this size in any Standard I've looked at so far, except Model Engineer's at 32 tpi.
- Brass adjusting nut - 9/32" 24tpi LH. ditto.

Cheers, Vann.

I am afraid that time is to short for me to tongue wobble and Bible bash aged 74 yrs I prefer to put my efforts in to time and home profitability and not champing at my iPad. If anyone asks me a sensible question and I believe I can give them fruitful ideas then I do.

 

[Vann]

I am afraid that time is to short...

I understand that. I just wanted to make sure people weren't given wrong information on the threads.

Here is the correct list of threads as used on Stanley and Record planes (and no doubt several other brands).

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Scarlet Lancer]

I have seen that diagram many times. What I take in is the fact the good Lord in his wisdom has a good try at confusing us. In my 74 years I have frequently found that cast iron can be an enigma of its own especially older caste iron. Threaded holes over the years alter almost perfectly with decomposition when it was perhaps treated with preserving oils and greases in the thread. Come 50 or 60 yrs you sound the hole and thread and find it is a perfect size up from what it should be. It is all too easy to say the diagram says…1/4 whit but it’s ……
remember factories shelved their goods to manufacture war items six years on a shelf possibly greased possibly not, possibly a drop of water sat in it. I have collected a wide range of different taps and dies over the years. Too many to say. A perfect split die with the screw of the stock tightened too much and the thread enlarges microscopical and you are into issues But! ……. hypothetically…… I make a new tote fixing for you to fit a perfect 7/36 threaded hole but I tighten the die head too tightly then the fixing I make is too loose for you….I am sure you can see the issue. Pockets of carbon in the casting or slag in casting Is another problem I find occasionally in early cast iron. So it is as we all know architects and technical drawings are there to follow but being human can not account for something in the future which the end user has to deal with. My last post said I don’t want to slap gums going on and on so I will stop! For the time being.

The tote and knob screws, like the frog screws, are 7/32" 20 tpi. Once the hole is flogged out a 1/4" 20 tpi tap should fit nicely. But then screw it your 7/32 stud and screw it up tight, and you'll strip it right out of the hole (probably causing further damage in the process).

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Good morning Phil I live in Treslothan whea`re a bouts are you.

Carharrack.

 

[Scarlet Lancer]

Carharrack.

What’s that called a “stones throw”. We are between the Equestrian Centre and Treslothan Church. I managed to get my hands on 3 mtrs of bright steel rod to make tote fixings in 7/32 inch BSW yesterday for most planes. If you need any you could drop buy and pick some up it works out at 8p for 100mm add 5mins to add two threads. How on Earth the eBayers can charge £15 - £20 plus post I don’t know. Virtually any thing you need for Marples is somewhere in my worksho.

 

[Scarlet Lancer]

I understand that. I just wanted to make sure people weren't given wrong information on the threads.

Here is the correct list of threads as used on Stanley and Record planes (and no doubt several other brands).

View attachment 139825

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Scarlet Lancer]

I have seen that diagram many times. What I take in is the fact the good Lord in his wisdom has a good try at confusing us. In my 74 years I have frequently found that cast iron can be an enigma of its own especially older caste iron. Threaded holes over the years alter almost perfectly with decomposition when it was perhaps treated with preserving oils and greases in the thread. Come 50 or 60 yrs you sound the hole and thread and find it is a perfect size up from what it should be. It is all too easy to say the diagram says…1/4 whit but it’s ……
remember factories shelved their goods to manufacture war items six years on a shelf possibly greased possibly not, possibly a drop of water sat in it. I have collected a wide range of different taps and dies over the years. Too many to say. A perfect split die with the screw of the stock tightened too much and the thread enlarges microscopical and you are into issues But! ……. hypothetically…… I make a new tote fixing for you to fit a perfect 7/36 threaded hole but I tighten the die head too tightly then the fixing I make is too loose for you….I am sure you can see the issue. Pockets of carbon in the casting or slag in casting Is another problem I find occasionally in early cast iron. So it is as we all know architects and technical drawings are there to follow but being human can not account for something in the future which the end user has to deal with. My last post said I don’t want to slap gums going on and on so I will stop! For the time being.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

What’s that called a “stones throw”. We are between the Equestrian Centre and Treslothan Church. I managed to get my hands on 3 mtrs of bright steel rod to make tote fixings in 7/32 inch BSW yesterday for most planes. If you need any you could drop buy and pick some up it works out at 8p for 100mm add 5mins to add two threads. How on Earth the eBayers can charge £15 - £20 plus post I don’t know. Virtually any thing you need for Marples is somewhere in my worksho.

Thanks for the offer, but I've recently sold all my Marples planes, and don't need parts anyway.

 

[Scarlet Lancer]

I understand that. I just wanted to make sure people weren't given wrong information on the threads.

Here is the correct list of threads as used on Stanley and Record planes (and no doubt several other brands).

View attachment 139825

Cheers, Vann.

Vann,
I find at times I can’t get back to the thread you posted about not seeing a 9/32 - 24 tip with left handed thread. I have quite a few oddities which I collected from my army days. I have from one night exercise we broke down 56ton Centurian battle tank which we thought great tow back to camp and have a night in the NAAFI. No chance the CO said that LAD would do the repairs in the field, it was night time pitch black night and tactical exercise. Turned out we had sheared a small 1/4 Whitworth bolt in the gearbox drive. When the fitters lifted the gearbox out they had to drill out the bolt for rethreading. So far so good. Being the Gunner/Op I just kept the tea going. Then I heard the “f“ expletive, the broken part had sheared three other bolts which were left hand on the drive…(9/32-24) American transpired that some AFV’s had odd NATO spares fitted. Long story short when the job was complete the fitter asked if the tea maker wanted the gizits my reply as always yes. I found it all when we move homes. Two 9/32-24 dies and taps, four 1/4-24 American and two 1/4 Whitworth dies, spanner’s and other tools all “written off“ as field losses. A few of them still in the wax dip protective. Still have the diary I wrote with that particular night in. It’s daft in a way the stuff I have kept over sixty years that have never been used. More and more gathers will my son ever know what it all is.

The down side is you will never see my workshop looking tidy and half our later still scratching head and thinking “I know I have one”

 

[Scarlet Lancer]

I understand that. I just wanted to make sure people weren't given wrong information on the threads.

Here is the correct list of threads as used on Stanley and Record planes (and no doubt several other brands).

View attachment 139825

Cheers, Vann.

I'm sorry but I believe you are wrong.

You cannot possibly be correct as UNC/UNF were formalised in 1949. Mr Bailey began making his planes in 1869 and Stanley has used the same threads throughout (until they changed to metric in the 1990s). There were no standard threads back then, with the exception of Whitworth threads - but these were not in anything like universal use at that time.

But assuming that maybe you are correct, what are the following threads?:
- Frog screws - 7/32" 20 tpi. These are not BSW nor UNC. BSF has 28 tpi.
- Frog adjusting screw - 1/4" 24 tpi. 1/4" BSW and UNC are 20 tpi. BSF has 26 tpi. UNF has 28tpi. UNEF has 32 tpi. BSCycle is 26tpi. Brass pipe thread is 26 tpi. Model Engineer's is 40 tpi.
- Lever cap screw - 9/32" 24tpi. I can't find this size in any Standard I've looked at so far, except Model Engineer's at 32 tpi.
- Brass adjusting nut - 9/32" 24tpi LH. ditto.

Cheers, Vann

Hi Vann
removed waxy stuff, thought it was a split one. Still looking for the tap.
kind regards Michael