Marking gauge (wheel variety)

[transatlantic]

I was recently watching one of Matt Estleas videos (he's very good). In particular this one on how to cut a half lap :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfXmFErs9J0

In it, he talks about how important it is to use the marking gauge off the same reference face on both your pieces. This makes complete sense as then you don't have to get the half lap exactly central as any error is accounted for.

But when using this approach, due to the beveled edge of the marking gauge blade, you'll get a clean cut on one piece, but on the other, you'll get the dent of the bevel? Am I missing something?

 

[Bacms]

No sure what you are getting to. The idea is to keep the bevel on the side of the waste. So it will not be visible on the joint.

 

[El Barto]

No sure what you are getting to. The idea is to keep the bevel on the side of the waste. So it will not be visible on the joint.

+1

 

[Jacob]

I was recently watching one of Matt Estleas videos (he's very good). In particular this one on how to cut a half lap :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfXmFErs9J0

In it, he talks about how important it is to use the marking gauge off the same reference face on both your pieces. This makes complete sense as then you don't have to get the half lap exactly central as any error is accounted for.

But when using this approach, due to the beveled edge of the marking gauge blade, you'll get a clean cut on one piece, but on the other, you'll get the dent of the bevel? Am I missing something?

You are missing that wheel gauges aren't as good as pin gauges, where the line is the centre of the mark whichever way around you use it.
Marking off face and edge is absolutely fundamental, and also only having face or edge up against machine fence or table, for similar reasons

 

[transatlantic]

No sure what you are getting to. The idea is to keep the bevel on the side of the waste. So it will not be visible on the joint.

Yes - that solves the problem of a clean line. But that is not the technique described in the video, which says to reference off the show face, so that you don't need to find the exact center.

 

[MikeG.]

I have a wheel marking gauge. It sits gathering dust. Far, far less useful or accurate than I thought it might be.

 

[Jacob]

No sure what you are getting to. The idea is to keep the bevel on the side of the waste. So it will not be visible on the joint.

Yes - that solves the problem of a clean line. But that is not the technique described in the video, which says to reference off the show face, so that you don't need to find the exact center.

Face and edge marks don't necessarily go on a show face though it helps. They are more for rationalising construction - making it more systematic and reducing error.

 

[transatlantic]

No sure what you are getting to. The idea is to keep the bevel on the side of the waste. So it will not be visible on the joint.

Yes - that solves the problem of a clean line. But that is not the technique described in the video, which says to reference off the show face, so that you don't need to find the exact center.

Face and edge marks don't necessarily go on a show face though it helps. They are more for rationalising construction - making it more systematic and reducing error.

Sorry - it doesn't actually need to be the show face. The point is that you reference from the same face of the project. So for a picture frame, you might do the back.

but anyway! .. back to the original question. Am I missing something, or am I right?

 

[custard]

I have a wheel marking gauge. It sits gathering dust. Far, far less useful or accurate than I thought it might be.

I seem to remember a previous conversation Mike, where it emerged that on your wheel gauge the wheel is considerably larger than the shaft. I'd also leave a wheel gauge like that to gather dust, as it can only really make a deep cut and the secret with any gauge is to make a shallow cut initially.

Fortunately most wheel gauges have a wheel that's the merest fraction wider than the shaft, and those type are a useful tool, in particular they're great for marking right around an edge, for example when laying out the shoulders of a tenon or the ends of the tail board if dovetailing.

 

[MikeG.]

Well remembered, custard. Yep, it's an expensive thing (and otherwise very well engineered) from Workshop Heaven, but the wheel sticks out 2 or 3mm from the shaft (it isn't in front of me, so I'm guessing). This means the shaft can't be used as a reference, which is pivotal to the proper use of a marking gauge. I have no issues using a pin gauge to mark around corners. However, the wheel gauge does something a pin gauge can't: quickly take an absolute measurement of the thickness of a board, which is of course useful when setting out the cutting depths for tails and pins, and for finger joints (box joints).

Edit:

I found the drawings I did illustrating the issue:

 

[Jacob]

....in particular they're great for marking right around an edge, for example when laying out the shoulders of a tenon or the ends of the tail board if dovetailing.

No prob with a pin gauge.
One of the many advantages of the pin gauge is how you can vary the line - from fine precise barely visible to deep and obvious - particularly useful on end grain.
A deep gauge line also helps for basic dimensioning - you can see it emerge from the face you are planing down, as you reach the line.
I've always thought wheel gauges are just another expensive and not particularly useful gadget.

 

[transatlantic]

Can we not turn this into a debate of gauges and simply answer the original question?

 

[Jacob]

Can we not turn this into a debate of gauges and simply answer the original question?

:shock: You are not from around here are you?

 

[MikeG.]

Can we not turn this into a debate of gauges and simply answer the original question?

You don't think that's been done? I can't see that there is anything whatever to add on that at all.

 

[woodbloke66]

I have a wheel marking gauge. It sits gathering dust. Far, far less useful or accurate than I thought it might be.

Same here; nicely made but not a 'go to' gauge - Rob

 

[John15]

I bought one about 3 years ago and used it quite a bit to start with but it slowly got used less and less (not really sure why) in favour of the wooden pin type of which I seem to have collected several - the ebay curse after getting back from the pub!

John

 

[Boysie]

Does the Veritas dual wheel version solve this issue? You have two wheels with bevels on opposite sides which could be set to the same depth, allowing you to choose which side of the line you want to have the clean cut.

 

[MikeG.]

Well that would make no difference to marking out half laps, and nor to the problem I brought up. The only thing that would solve that is a very much smaller wheel enabling the shaft to register on the surface of the work.

 

[transatlantic]

Does the Veritas dual wheel version solve this issue? You have two wheels with bevels on opposite sides which could be set to the same depth, allowing you to choose which side of the line you want to have the clean cut.

I think that would help, but probably not worth it. I'm going to try a normal gauge, but I suspect that won't really help, as due to the cone shape of the pin, you effectively have a bevel all the way around. So where as the wheel gauge will produce one crisp line and then a dent on the other, the normal gauge is going to produce a dent on both sides of the line, in other words a V.

I am perhaps overthinking it though and it won't be an issue

 

[Jacob]

.....
I am perhaps overthinking it though and it won't be an issue

You are over thinking it and it won't be an issue.
Millions of people have used pin gauges for 100s of years without finding the "cone" to be a problem. It's more of a fine point than a cone anyway.
If you try to use two gauges with the bevel opposite you will end up with huge complications on any project of complexity and be getting it wrong on simple ones too.
But having a collection of wooden pin gauges is a good idea - you can save the settings on each (as many as you need) throughout the length of a project. Some you can leave set indefinitely - you often find old ones which have been fixed at 1/2" etc.
I've probably got a dozen. One bought new mortice gauge the others all 2nd hand. Total cost perhaps £40 ish. Less than the price of one metal daft gadget.