Lots of hot air

[D_W]

as opposed to having the economy run by capitalists, who run the world and tell us what we can and cannot do.

How do you think a farmer would get on if he said to Tesco "Im going to have to put my prices up"

compare your existence to the soviets, WWII germany or venezuela (or north korea, or belarus (I list belarus because they claim to be a democratic socialist state, but it's not like they actually operate like one).

They would probably all have the ability to control what their citizens are doing.

 

[Selwyn]

The problem is animal farming, which uses 20 times the land area of the equivalent vegetable food production.
S America is being rapidly deforested for cattle farming and animal fodder, following word-wide trends.

Well it just depends. Some animal farming is perfect for the climate, but some is not. Animals really help soil fertility.

The vast majority of people don't want to eat nuts and scrabble around for enough nutrients from plants. They want some meat too

 

[murdoch]

The problem is animal farming, which uses 20 times the land area of the equivalent vegetable food production.
S America is being rapidly deforested for cattle farming and animal fodder, following word-wide trends.

I grew up and worked on my dads farm. It’s still going and has pig, broiler chickens, free range layers and arable. Broiler chickens and pigs take up very little space for huge amounts of food. But the big thing is that without the animal manure the crops yield is reduced massively. I’m sorry Jacob but you may know about other areas in life, but when it comes to farming you clearly have no idea. I grant that sheep farming and cattle take up more land, but the land used for these animals is completely unsuitable for crops. This is why cereals and veg are mainly grown south and sheep further up north.

 

[Jacob]

I grew up and worked on my dads farm. It’s still going and has pig, broiler chickens, free range layers and arable. Broiler chickens and pigs take up very little space for huge amounts of food. But the big thing is that without the animal manure the crops yield is reduced massively. I’m sorry Jacob but you may know about other areas in life, but when it comes to farming you clearly have no idea. I grant that sheep farming and cattle take up more land, but the land used for these animals is completely unsuitable for crops. This is why cereals and veg are mainly grown south and sheep further up north.

I've worked on farms too.
Pigs and chickens need plant food. That's what takes up the space. The rule of thumb is that meat needs 10 to 20 times the area of land for the equivalent amount of vegetable food for human consumption, even if they are kept in small spaces or battery farms.
Thing about climate change is that a lot of things will have to be looked at and veggy diet is one of them.
Sheep take up non arable land some of the time but this has de-forested the highlands of Britain and increased atmospheric CO2. Also involves drainage which reduces peat - which is one of the densest ways of sequestering carbon.
Not good news for farming I'm afraid and I will miss the lamb chops - it's not good news for any of us!
The alarming thing about climate change is how little people seem to know about it and how little preparation there has been.
Don't blame me I'm just passing the message!

 

[John Brown]

I grew up and worked on my dads farm. It’s still going and has pig, broiler chickens, free range layers and arable. Broiler chickens and pigs take up very little space for huge amounts of food. But the big thing is that without the animal manure the crops yield is reduced massively. I’m sorry Jacob but you may know about other areas in life, but when it comes to farming you clearly have no idea. I grant that sheep farming and cattle take up more land, but the land used for these animals is completely unsuitable for crops. This is why cereals and veg are mainly grown south and sheep further up north.

I'll agree that sheep and goats can graze land that is unsuitable for crops, but cattle? Really? You surprise me.

 

[murdoch]

Good reply Jacob, I’ll look into what you say

 

[murdoch]

I'll agree that sheep and goats can graze land that is unsuitable for crops, but cattle? Really? You surprise me.

I should have left out cattle, I don’t really know much about diary and beef

 

[Jacob]

Good reply, I’ll look into what you say

I suppose that one of the biggest surprises for many would be that encouraging peat bogs is better for human wellbeing than grazing sheep. The world turned upside down!
https://www.iucn.org/resources/issues-briefs/peatlands-and-climate-change

 

[John Brown]

I don't really know much about anything, but I have seen sheep and goats grazing steep, hard to cultivate landscapes. My neighbour has a herd of Dexter cattle, and the fields they graze could easily be cultivated.
Full disclosure: I do have two sheep.

 

[D_W]

I'll agree that sheep and goats can graze land that is unsuitable for crops, but cattle? Really? You surprise me.

cattle graze marginal land here and have for probably centuries. Our marginal land is probably different than your marginal land (dryland more so than highlands).

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Is the issue the efficient use of land for food production, or which is more environmentally sound - using land for biomass/crops or animal rearing.

Efficient use of land is more likely through crop production for food than the same area used for animals - animals are not 100% efficient in converting feed to meat.

This may only be an issue due to the growth in populations - were there only 25% of the people, it would not matter that meat production required 4 times the land.

Environmentally the answer is less certain. Solar energy forces the growth of biomass - grass, trees, crops etc. Biomass created is "consumed" in one of three ways:

• eaten as an edible crop by humans
• eaten by animals which are then eaten by humans
• simply rots - trees and plants grow, die and then regrow

The only variable is the length of the cycle - trees may absorb solar energy for centuries before eventually dying, rotting and releasing chemicals back into the atmosphere. The other extreme cycle is the time for a crop to grow to maturity followed by immediate consumption.

Adding water use (if this is actually a constraint) or the type of gases given off by decay (some gaes are more "greenhouse" than others) may have an environmental impact.

In summary (as a committed carnivore) - without a very clear explanation I am currently unconvinced of the benefit to climate change of reducing meat consumption

 

[TRITON]

Well it just depends. Some animal farming is perfect for the climate, but some is not. Animals really help soil fertility.

The vast majority of people don't want to eat nuts and scrabble around for enough nutrients from plants. They want some meat too

I could do vegetarianism, if fish was an option, which is something Ive never understood about vegetarians eating fish. Poor old fish, even vegetarians don't even support them

But each to their own. We mustn't judge particle board users either.

 

[Rorschach]

Without meat farming:

No eggs, no milk, no leather, no wool, no gelatin, no suet, no organic fertiliser, no bonemeal, no cheese, no butter, no yoghurt and countless other products that are by products or produced alongside the meat.

Mmmm I can't wait to live on a diet of boiled cabbage and potatoes.

 

[TRITON]

Without meat farming:

No eggs, no milk, no leather, no wool, no gelatin, no suet, no organic fertiliser, no bonemeal, no cheese, no butter, no yoghurt and countless other products that are by products or produced alongside the meat.

Mmmm I can't wait to live on a diet of boiled cabbage and potatoes.

It's a horrible experience. Once went camping with 2 vegetarians and two vegans. stewed turnips was one of the concoctions. Utterly revolting, and it looked it too. I will never eat turnips again, long as I live.
My Haggis,neeps and tatties is always Haggis and tatties, new neeps I wouldn't spoil Haggis with turnips, no matter how traditional. You know how hard it is to catch the damn things.

 

[Jacob]

..

The country wouldnt survive it if the population suddenly turned vegetarian, as we simply dont have enough arable land, ......

No it's the other way around. Arable farming is much more efficient and requires much less land to produce an equivalent amount of food, not least because arable farming is also required in order to produce animal feed in vast quantities.
This is another of the simple facts of life facing us, which may be a surprise to many people.
I'm not looking forward to vegetarianism either!

So little awareness of the actual logistics needed.
eg
How would this produce be distributed and by what means would it be transported ?.
How would this transportation and distribution be paid for, the operators, the drivers.
How many are required to distribute and transport enough vegetarian foodstuffs to satisfy the population.
And thats just a couple of questions, not the hundreds such a move would raise.

I agree, and all these questions should be asked, but logistically a vegetarian population is much easier to feed and needs less land. For a start we wouldn't be having to feed all those animals which in many parts of the world takes up the largest proportion of arable acreage.
Here's another link outlining the dismal facts. Is the Livestock Industry Destroying the Planet? google your own you will find many saying the same sort of thing
Here's a link to war time rationing. These things were rationed because they were highly demanding of resources, then as now. Rationing in World War Two Apparently it amounted to a very healthy diet and nobody suffered from it except from boredom!

 

[Keith Cocker]

My rant is over, but I doubt that will make a spit of difference to the characters who want to pull all our strings!

It really puzzles me that people can think that “they” are doing “all this” so that they can “pull all our strings”. It must be paranoia.

 

[Jacob]

It really puzzles me that people can think that “they” are doing “all this” so that they can “pull all our strings”. It must be paranoia.

Yep. They also accuse "them" of being "woke". I guess the non-woke would rather be nodding off at the back without having to be disturbed by inconvenient ideas!

 

[deema]

I don’t know what I don’t know. So, I don’t know how the earth survived when the coal and oil was living matter, the white cliffs of dover; calcium carbonate was shell fish. That’s a lot of carbon / CO2 that’s been locked up….but it was once free. Life survived / thrived when it was free so why does it make any difference if it’s free again? Equally where has all the carbon come from to replace that locked up to supported life before we started releasing it by using fossil fuels.
There was more oxygen in the atmosphere that supported super sized bugs when the dinosaurs were around…..where did it go, was it locked up with the carbon?

 

[Jacob]

I don’t know what I don’t know. So, I don’t know how the earth survived when the coal and oil was living matter, the white cliffs of dover; calcium carbonate was shell fish. That’s a lot of carbon / CO2 that’s been locked up….but it was once free. Life survived / thrived when it was free so why does it make any difference if it’s free again? Equally where has all the carbon come from to replace that locked up to supported life before we started releasing it by using fossil fuels.
There was more oxygen in the atmosphere that supported super sized bugs when the dinosaurs were around…..where did it go, was it locked up with the carbon?

Life as a whole is not under threat (touch wood!) but the way we live (and a lot of other species) is going to be disrupted. It's the speed of change which matters, perhaps not leaving us time to adapt.
Other question answered here Carboniferous Period and Prehistoric Facts

 

[Jacob]

....
Efficient use of land is more likely through crop production for food than the same area used for animals - animals are not 100% efficient in converting feed to meat.

the rule of thumb figure often quoted is 10%. Arable produces ten times the food per acre compared to livestock. But there are many variables and other inputs.
More detail here: https://storage.googleapis.com/plan...922-Greenpeace-report-Farming-for-Failure.pdf