Looking into the darkside

[Spectric]

At my age I can still remember site chippies cutting everything with handsaws with nice wooden handles and they just kept going, and as straight as a die to a line. Also driving in screws with slotted heads and people like me boring holes for cable runs with a brace and bit, certainly gave you strength.

 

[Jacob]

.......
This topic made me think back to when I visited the Chatham historic dockyard and that is a place worth visiting to see traditional woodworking, you realise that our ships at trafalgar were built with a lot of sweat and hard graft!

Not only that but they often had enough skills on board ship to just about rebuild the whole ship if necessary. Ship wreck no problem if they could beach near a forest! Survival depended on it. Expeditions saved by ship's carpenter and blacksmith.
Shackleton's expedition (but not the ship) was saved by the carpenter* which caused astonishment amongst the upper clarses - how could this be; posh chaps saved by carpenter?
Answer of course is that he was a very clever and competent chap. He wasn't a unique genius, in fact intelligence is distributed fairly evenly through the class system - which is why so much traditional craftwork was so brilliant. It was the class system which kept them where they were.
Given opportunity and state education they'd turn into engineers, scientists, and so on.
OTOH given intensive private education and the class system even very thick kids incapable of woodwork could become prime ministers.
*PS he rigged up the lifeboat for the 800 mile trip to S Georgia. Shackleton deservedly gets the rest of the credit for saving the others.

 

[johnnyb]

given no financial needs and all work being in solid wood(no sheet stuff) working entirely by hand is both realistic and achievable. I reckon maybe a year or two to adjust and upskill. also I think I'm very used to how much I can achieve using my current set up I could see some frustration from the slowdown but its something I have done in the past but I fear I won't be able to do in a decade due to physical issues.
it won't stop me from doing as much handworking as I can now though.

 

[thetyreman]

I like to use handtool methods where possible, some things are definitely easier with machines no doubt, they are good for the donkey work, so I try and use both.

 

[Adam W.]

I have to cut 12" long by 1 1/2" wide and 2" deep mortices when I replace parts of the sole plate on the place I'm working on at the moment. There's no way I'm cutting those by hand.

No way!

 

[Spectric]

I have to cut 12" long by 1 1/2" wide and 2" deep mortices when I replace parts of the sole plate on the place I'm working on at the moment. There's no way I'm cutting those by hand.

No way!

But you won,t be using a plane!

 

[heimlaga]

With hand tools there are no limitations to what kind of joints you make or what shapes you can create nor to the size of the workpiece. The only limitations being the properties of the wood and the size of the largest tree in the forest.
However there will always be one limitation and that is productivity. Pretty much everything will by the nature of hand tool work become one off jobs with the time consumption typical for such jobs. Preparing stock is always terribly time consuming by hand.

With power tools there are always plenty of limitations to what can be made. The more and bigger machines you get the more you can do but the limitations will still be there set by the machines. One off jobs will be hugely time consuming because everything must be set up for production runs and with only part made per setup it ends up being costly. Making adjustments to missfitting parts is pretty much impossible so you end up wasting several parts in the set up stage. That is not a problem if you waste two parts while setting up a production run of 75 parts but if you waste two parts making one then way too much wood will be wasted.

So....... if you are making anything else than hobby woodwork or period work demonstrations at a museum where you are paid by the hour you will need power tools. And if you want to make anything else than long production runs of moderately sized pieces you need hand tools. To be used together in the combination most appropriate for the particular project.

 

[Jameshow]

Preparing stock my hand isn't that slow tbh.

A scrub plane diagonally and then length ways followed by a finishing plane dosen't take long.

However with a planer thicknesser unless you have a top end one, the surface will still need a finishing plane. So you have to set up the planer plane and then finish plane whilst with hand tools you might scrub and finish.

If your doing alot of timber then the p/t will win hands down but below 10m hand tools are quite handy!

Cheers James

 

[houtslager]

Well this is interesting, I wonder when our cousins on the other side of the pond will react here ???
As a semi self taught joiner /furniture maker I prefer hand tool wooddwork over power tools , but if I wanted to pay my bills on time when I started I would be bankrupt before the second job was done.
Now, with a nearly fully equiped machine park, a trailer full of power tools and numerous tool chests over flowing with hand tools, I can now nearly do anything with wood and make a profit.
It has taken 30 years of learning and I am still learning new ideas,tricks and tips from this forum and many others around the world.
The most important aspect learned is - choose the type of work you want to do then, learn/read/ask others what are the best tools for that type of work.
I made many mistakes , mainly buying cheap and then having to re buy again, so the BUY THE BEST THAT YOU CAN PAY FOR !
HTH,
Karl the latest itinerent woodworker

 

[heimlaga]

Preparing stock my hand isn't that slow tbh.

A scrub plane diagonally and then length ways followed by a finishing plane dosen't take long.

However with a planer thicknesser unless you have a top end one, the surface will still need a finishing plane. So you have to set up the planer plane and then finish plane whilst with hand tools you might scrub and finish.

If your doing alot of timber then the p/t will win hands down but below 10m hand tools are quite handy!

Cheers James

I do sometimes prepare stock by hand. When they are too large or too heavy or just have awkward shapes that don't fit the planer/thicknesser or when I want less than a millimetre removed to make something fit.
However when you start from rough sawn as I always do and want all sides flat and square and all mesurements reasonably accurate it is very laborious.

 

[Jacob]

If you were making stuff entirely by hand to sell, you wouldn't be competing against Mr Router Domino man with a TS and PT, your competition would be another nutter working by hand, on upmarket products costing a lot more.
Just wondered if there could be a rule of thumb about relative cost of hand compared to machine made. 4 times the price?
Frinstance that Commodore chair Commodore (Director) Chairs with Free Personalisation at Nauticalia - Shop Online. £60. With careful design, shapely hand made bits, nice wood, heavier, hand woven seat/back. Probably more like £500?

 

[Jameshow]

I do sometimes prepare stock by hand. When they are too large or too heavy or just have awkward shapes that don't fit the planer/thicknesser or when I want less than a millimetre removed to make something fit.
However when you start from rough sawn as I always do and want all sides flat and square and all mesurements reasonably accurate it is very laborious.

Very much agreed.

Just at the start of my serious woodworking adventure. So my experience is limited mainly to pine and smaller sizes.

Doing stuff professionally is a different kettle of fish but I do know guys who do it successfully from a double garage!

Cheers James

 

[Adam W.]

If you were making stuff entirely by hand to sell, you wouldn't be competing against Mr Router Domino man with a TS and PT, your competition would be another nutter working by hand, on upmarket products costing a lot more.
Just wondered if there could be a rule of thumb about relative cost of hand compared to machine made. 4 times the price?
Frinstance that Commodore chair Commodore (Director) Chairs with Free Personalisation at Nauticalia - Shop Online. £60. With careful design, shapely hand made bits, nice wood, heavier, hand woven seat/back. Probably more like £500?

You'd get a shock at the prices fully carved and gilded picture frames go for, £30,000 a pop isn't uncommon.

More complicated carved stuff goes for a lot more than that.

 

[Nigel Burden]

Have a look at some of the pieces produced by the Edward Barnsley Workshop. Superb craftmanship, but £28000 for a rocking chair, but a very nice one at that.

Nigel.

 

[Adam W.]

Things get very dark among the fjords....

Not sure if your Norwegian is up to it, but I'm sure you get the idea, enjoy.

 

[Spectric]

So all you powertool users, what plane or planes do you own and what do you use them for that a powertool is not the answer?

 

[Jacob]

So all you powertool users, what plane or planes do you own and what do you use them for that a powertool is not the answer?

The most essential use I've found is for getting long pieces over and through a PT.
Too long/heavy they are impossible to control and it becomes necessary to flatten/straighten/square two faces by hand, then they can go through the thicknesser.
I did some 14' 4x4" newel posts this way, and other stuff every now and then.
Also have used a scrub plane quite often for cleaning up old timbers (I've got a lot of them). Scrub lifts off the dirty surface by cutting deep into the cleaner wood underneath, and doesn't matter if it hits a nail they are easy to sharpen and only a rough finish is expected.
Other than that they all get used quite regularly for lots of jobs large and small e.g. edge jointing boards

 

[Jameshow]

The most essential use I've found is for getting long pieces over and through a PT.
Too long/heavy they are impossible to control and it becomes necessary to flatten/straighten/square two faces by hand, then they can go through the thicknesser.
I did some 14' 4x4" newel posts this way, and other stuff every now and then.
Also have used a scrub plane quite often for cleaning up old timbers (I've got a lot of them). Scrub lifts off the dirty surface by cutting deep into the cleaner wood underneath, and doesn't matter if it hits a nail they are easy to sharpen and only a rough finish is expected.
Other than that they all get used quite regularly for lots of jobs large and small e.g. edge jointing boards

Well that depends on the type of scrub plane your using.....

Cheers James