Let's Talk Infills...

[yetloh]

Jimi43 wrote

I have a feeling that's the iron tap Jim......

But it has a Norris type adjuster? (hammer)

I like infill planes but I don't like the look of this one especially the "wheels"!

A few years back, I inquired about the Bristol Design ones but they needed a lot of milling to finish them off - bought a Holtey kit instead!

Rod

As I said Rod...it seemed strange...but maybe it is a "design" feature....anyway...the price is silly...it's these sort of prices that give infills the reputation that, however good the finish and ease of use, they don't justify the price. Handmade ones...maybe...as there is a huge amount of difficult and very skilled work involved but cleverly made on CNC equipment...sorry..don't get it.

Jim

I know we won't agree about this, Jim, but I think it is a mistake to assume that CNC removes all or even a major part of the skill. Some of the skills are different, but there is still a huge amoount of hand work in a Holtey plane, not to mention the extremely detailed design work involved. The fact that Karl still only manages to produce 30 odd planes a year is testament to that. At this level, CNC is about producing them better, rather than churning them out. Aesthetics apart (which i generally like) it is the depth of engineering thought, know-how and, yes, hand skills that sets Holtey planes apart and for me, makes them the gold standard. This is not to denigrate other makers; thank goodness there is the variety of taste and opinion out there which enables so many good plane makers to scratch a living.

Jim

 

[jimi43]

I don't disagree with you Jim...far from it...I realise that to make totally handmade planes these days would be virtually a commercial impossibility....it is highly labour intensive and the workplace is a far cry from the days of Norris....even late Norris or my favourite...Spiers of Ayr!

I would rather see CNC being used to create infills and see refinements to the design than see them die a death entirely but I don't get the high price level of thousands of pounds...I really don't. But then I don't make dovetailed infills commercially so I am probably totally unaware of what is left once the "hard" parts are done by the computer.

If I were to buy a "new" infill today I would buy a Bill Carter plane...simply because I think he represents the true spirit of the pioneers...and I love his little mitre planes...but as you say..it's down to opinion and taste...for me...that is mine.

Jim

 

[Harbo]

My Norris's have the brass bolt but not on my other two:

Rod

 

[yetloh]

If I were to buy a "new" infill today I would buy a Bill Carter plane...simply because I think he represents the true spirit of the pioneers...and I love his little mitre planes...but as you say..it's down to opinion and taste...for me...that is mine.

I love Bill Carter's mitre planes too and I know Karl Holtey admires his work.

Jim

 

[Allylearm]

The only issue I have with the market on older planes by Spears etc and these hand made ones is what is the current trend aiming at. The reason for hand Planes was for tradesmen or wood workers to ply there skill, make an income and maintain quality in finish. At the prices I have seen on the net currently, are they comparable to when the first brass/wood planes were made from late 1800 to early Edwardian. I cannot see my Grandfather or his father before him paying the prices demanded now (relatively speaking) and they were still getting good crafted tools for the then pay scales of that era, hand made at that. It must have been a price that justified Spears and Mathieson carrying on a business to supply or they would have not in business as long.

So what is the new market, planes that never see timber or work as they were intended. Are tools just for admiration, my tools are for use, I appreciate esthetics, I still have old tools working along side my tools I purchased as a Apprentice as they are comfortable like old walking boots. My first real purchase as a young Joiner of 16 was spending my £20 wages on a complete set of auger bits, the traveling sales man flung in a 1"1/4 fast bit as a freeby.

Now I see planes costing £1000's, I have not met apprentices making this kind of money, non that I employ anyway. Is this trend going to cut out new tradesmen from aquiring such tools. The old tradition was for retiring tradesmen to hand down tools to the apprentices, I aquired a few saws made by Sorby and Disston this way.

Christ I am starting to sound like my old Journeyman on the times a changing. LOL

By the way I would love a smoother size 4 or Coffin Plane in Tiger Wood by Sauer & Steiner. I will stick to my old Spears and Mathieson & Stanley/Records, or I need to charge customers more and not tell the wife what a new plane would cost.

Ally

 

[jimi43]

If I were to buy a "new" infill today I would buy a Bill Carter plane...simply because I think he represents the true spirit of the pioneers...and I love his little mitre planes...but as you say..it's down to opinion and taste...for me...that is mine.

I love Bill Carter's mitre planes too and I know Karl Holtey admires his work.

Jim

Bill is simply a genius of design, technique and everything else "infill".....I'm sure he won't mind a hotlink:

Now THAT is style!

And the computer on the right is being controlled by the processor between his ears....

...and another one...absolute beauty....

...and if you want to see maverick design...try burr elm...and look at that handle profile:

Every single thing Bill does makes me feel warm inside...he is simply a master craftsman beyond the others....

Jim

 

[Harbo]

I forgot about my Bill Carter in Boxwood but its not an infill!

And it's only about 25mm long!

Met him at West Dean - a very pleasant and unassuming man.

Rod

 

[Alf]

Wish Badger Pond hadn't been killed by its owner, because I'm sure Stephen Thomas went into more detail about the making of the Loopies, and I'm fairly sure CNC didn't feature at all. But it's a fair few years ago now, and I can't recall. They were inspired by the peg and hole style of drawer joinery, iirc.

 

[kirkpoore1]

Wish Badger Pond hadn't been killed by its owner, because I'm sure Stephen Thomas went into more detail about the making of the Loopies, and I'm fairly sure CNC didn't feature at all. But it's a fair few years ago now, and I can't recall. They were inspired by the peg and hole style of drawer joinery, iirc.

Here's an article on Stephen Thomas' planes:
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/cSchwarz/z_art/loopyInfill/loopyInfill-1.asp

The soles are hand scraped:

I don't believe any CNC is involved. And no, they really weren't made for everyday craftsmen. Stephen apparently started making them just as an exercise in "ultimate plane making", taking the basic infill design and adding a movable throat, upgraded Norris adjuster, scraped sole, and who knows what else. He's pretty active on the OWWM list, and I've had email conversations with him about some machines we have. In my experience, he is unfailingly polite, patient, and has a good sense of humor.

Kirk

 

[Alf]

Yeah, Kirk, I followed the link to that article further up the thread, but I think Stephen when into it a little more in BP forum threads back in the day. And yep, I agree - a very nice chap.

 

[LENPAM]

I've been into infills for quite a few years both using and collecting them and I have opinions :lol: The first thing anyone who uses them will notice is that a good well made infill with keep on working well even as the iron dulls up quite a bit unlike most other planes with the exception of maybe wooden ones.

My favorites are Henry Slater made planes and early Norris'. The weight plus the thicker irons and capirons along with the wooden bed make for so little chatter and other quirks found in abundance in Stanleys,Records etc. that I've pretty much stopped using those except a couple Bedrocks and 4 1'2's I've tuned myself. Granted they tend to be pricey but the joy of using a well tuned infill is worth it to me,enough so that I keep collecting them and returning them to good working order.

I'm not above refurbishing an infill completely if it needs it and to some that's almost sacrilege but I've always thought a well tuned and maintained tool will get used over a rusty collectable any day of the week. The other contention of course is the "mouth size" which is such an overated and overstated argument that it's a waste of good air since some of the best made user infills had rather large open mouths such as the Norris and Spiers. The mouth makes a difference in a plane such as a miter for shotting endgrain or a smoother for fine work on knarly grained hardwoods but not to the extent the mouthboys would have us believe.

The new infill makers are a mixed breed and some I really admire like Wayne Anderson and Konrad Sauer who use old style techniques to produce infills of true quality and then some while very high in performance leave me rather cold with the machining to the enth degree of perfection. Infills are a fascinating subject with many roads to travel,Len