Labour's Employment Rights Bill

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The population of Yorkshire is larger than that of Denmark. Denmark is a market economy and not a socialist country.
.....with extensive socialist public spending policies and high taxation.
You would need to go further afield to find them. For example Cuba, North Korea, China similarly et al.
If you chose to believe that these are socialist countries you just need to change your strange personal definition of socialism. Those places are totalitarian dictatorships.
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But because it's a Labour government going to do it, everything is played down by its disciples.
I agree. They are the new conservatives.
I think the people of the UK, 12 months down the line are going to bitterly regret voting for them after having fallen for the anti-Tory hype we've seen over the past few years.
Dunno I think even Labour's old style conservatism would be a lot better than the ideological version as represented by Thatcher - and at its very worst by Truss or Johnson.
 
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Perhaps, on a philosophical level, those ways of behaving that for convenience sake, we call Capitalism and Socialism. exist side-by-side in all of us. And we should take care that nether of them come to the fore at the expense of the other.......
Neither of them are really fully formed concepts and mean different things to different people. It's not a simple battle between good and evil, like a comic book!
The main issue is to consider how to run a country for the benefit of all and simply do what is necessary. Who needs an ideology!
 
Neither of them are really fully formed concepts and mean different things to different people. It's not a simple battle between good and evil, like a comic book!
The main issue is to consider how to run a country for the benefit of all and simply do what is necessary. Who needs an ideology!
I agree with you that both have their good and bad parts It would follow from this that one should not fully espouse either side, but follow a sort of middle way.

I like that you are showing your more pragmatic side, and realise that more Socialism is not the answer to all the countries ills. :giggle:
 
I agree with you that both have their good and bad parts It would follow from this that one should not fully espouse either side, but follow a sort of middle way.

I like that you are showing your more pragmatic side, and realise that more Socialism is not the answer to all the countries ills. :giggle:
Socialism is pragmatism - it's how you sort out the country's ills to the benefit of all.
 
As WC once said of socialism..."it's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"!
I can't say I disagree!
He would say that; WC was a raving tory and mega rich - worth £7million, not a lot in todays terms but it certainly was back then.
 
As for the differences between socialists and Conservatives, if the latter had indicated that they were going to remove the winter fuel allowance of millions of pensioners this winter, they would have been vilified from the end to end of Britain.
But because it's a Labour government going to do it, everything is played down by its disciples.

I think the people of the UK, 12 months down the line are going to bitterly regret voting for them after having fallen for the anti-Tory hype we've seen over the past few years.
A cynic might say that few pensioners are Labour voters, and many won't be around come the next General election, so they're an easy target.

Silver Voices' Dennis Reed said: "The scrapping of the allowance for most pensioners is a targeted attack on those who have devoted their working lives to this nation and who are least able to fight back. "The Chancellor knows that this measure will greatly increase pensioner poverty." Dame Harriet Baldwin, a Tory MP and former chair of the Treasury committee, branded the move a "chilling political choice" as it emerged that having £11,350 a year was is enough to lose the Winter Fuel Payment.

The national Minimum wage for 2024 is £11.44 an hour, so someone who is working and works 40 hours a week would earn £457.60 a week = £23.795 a year. In contrast with that, pensioner on £11,350 who will lose their winter fuel allowance yet will be on half the income of someone on the minimum wage. True, pensioners aren’t working, but most of today’s pensioners did do from age 15 to 65 and paid taxes and N.I. Male pensioners in their 80s will also have served two years compulsory National Service in the armed forces from age 18 to 20, and will have spent their early years living in real austerity, with food and clothing rationed, power cuts & coal shortages.

I was born in 1939, and food rationing didn't end until I was fifteen. Aged 85, my wife and I will lose the winter fuel allowance, but we'll just roll with it, as we did when the free TV licence was scrapped. Like many of my generation, if someone asks me how I'm doing, I don't reel off a litany of 'ain't it awful' ailments and woes, I'm more likely to say 'mustn't grumble, can't complain or 'middling on'. The mottos we grew up with have stood us in good stead: 'Cut your suit according to your cloth, penny wise-pound foolish, waste not want not, many a mickle makes a muckle', you've made your bed - you'll have to lie on it', don't cry over spilled milk'. If I'd have gone to the doctor's to say 'I'm depressed' or 'down in the dumps' he'd probably have said 'work it off' - not put me on a waiting list to see a therapist.

The mantra of Rachel Reeves has been 'we won't do what we can't afford'. Well giving inflation-busting pay rise of 5.5% and now 22%, to hopefully buy off the Trade Unions who bankroll Labour seems at odds with that. She also said 'we'll get the economy going' but cancelling a whole raft of infrastructure projects such as hospital building seems at odds with that. No doubt in their desire to get waiting lists down, which is sorely needed, the only way to do that in the short terms will be to get doctors and nurses to work longer shifts and rest days, which will of course be at much higher pay rates, in addition to increased employer pension contributions for generous public sector pensions.

It will be interesting to see how many more Public Sector pay demands come out of the woodwork.

Not ranting - just saying.
 
Socialism is pragmatism - it's how you sort out the country's ills to the benefit of all.
Can't say I see the logic of this. Being pragmatic may well mean that you have to abandon Socialism. and embrace Capitalism in its worst form, just for the sake of making things happen.

As I understand it Pragmatism by its very nature trumps. all other 'isms. It is a way of saying - " This way - and only this way - can I make things happen"
 
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The mantra of Rachel Reeves has been 'we won't do what we can't afford'. .....
Which is what your so-called "caring conservative" would say.
What it really means is "we won't do what mega rich tax payers don't want to pay for."
Same old b.......s as usual!
 
Why - out of the blue - did Labour cancel Winter Fuel Allowance - I don't recall it being in their pre-election Manifesto?

Back in 2023 Labour’s new Chief Secretary to the Treasury warned against means testing pensioners for winter fuel payments. So what’s changed? Why wasn’t Starmer straight with pensioners during the general election that Labour would make this change? Pensioners deserve respect and thanks in retirement for their years of hard work.

Speaking in the Commons, Rachel Reeves described the move as a “difficult decision” which forms part of a suite of measures to fill what Labour claims is a £22bn budget black hole left by the previous government. 9.5 Billion of that is the inflation-busting pay rises awarded in the Public Sector.

During the 2017 general election campaign, Ms Reeves shared a Labour poster from 1945 promising a decent pension with the caption: “Love this poster from 1945. This time again, it’s Labour who will stand up for pensioners, defending the triple lock and winter fuel payments.”

A week earlier Angela Rayner, now Deputy Prime Minister, (huh?) had said: “Pensioners will be worried with cuts to pensions, death tax for social care, winter fuel allowance cuts, Tories the nasty party #ToryManifesto”

How two-faced is that?

I can just imagine the outrage and righteous indignation of Reeves & Raynor if the Tories had scrapped the winter fuel allowance. Not only did they not do that, in the winter of 22/23, in addition to retaining the Winter Fuel Allowance, they gave every household £400. Doesn't sound very nasty to me. Furthermore, when it comes to balancing the books, during the Pandemic, the Tory government (AKA 'nasty party') distributed £68.9 billion of furlough payments to 1.3 million employers covering 11.7 million individual jobs, and £28.1 billion over five SEISS grants to 2.9 million self-employed people. (The schemes' costs include an estimated £4.5 billion of error and fraud).

Charities warned in the wake of Reeves’s announcement that two million pensioners on low incomes will be hit hardest by her decision, which comes into effect in November. Age UK said more than 800,000 older people who live on very low incomes – under £218.25 a week for single pensioners and under £332.95 for couples – already miss out on pension credit.
 
Why - out of the blue - did Labour cancel Winter Fuel Allowance - I don't recall it being in their pre-election Manifesto?

Back in 2023 Labour’s new Chief Secretary to the Treasury warned against means testing pensioners for winter fuel payments. So what’s changed? Why wasn’t Starmer straight with pensioners during the general election that Labour would make this change?
Nothing has changed - Starmer has never been straight with anybody. He lied his way into the leadership for starters.
He seems to have an arrogant level of self confidence in his management abilities and thinks that nothing should stand in his way. An authoritarian, in a word.
He's riding for a fall - lots of hot air but little substance and some very dubious policy proposals going nowhere. Unless they face the obvious and start raising taxes steeply.
It's going to be interesting to see how it pans out. The honeymoon period is nearly over!
Reeves is interesting - she comes across like an AI robot and can talk anybody into the ground, but dodges issues and evades questions.
 
Till they run out of other people's money!

And it's nice of this government to stop winter fuel payments to the pensioners as they have lots of illegals to fund....
I can survive the loss of the winter fuel allowance to recoup the losses from the pandemic. After all, the government did more for the workers than their unions did. The 'illegals' are a problem that came from the outside, not brought in by government, so they have to be dealt with.
 
Why - out of the blue - did Labour cancel Winter Fuel Allowance - I don't recall it being in their pre-election Manifesto?

Back in 2023 Labour’s new Chief Secretary to the Treasury warned against means testing pensioners for winter fuel payments. So what’s changed? Why wasn’t Starmer straight with pensioners during the general election that Labour would make this change? Pensioners deserve respect and thanks in retirement for their years of hard work.

Speaking in the Commons, Rachel Reeves described the move as a “difficult decision” which forms part of a suite of measures to fill what Labour claims is a £22bn budget black hole left by the previous government. 9.5 Billion of that is the inflation-busting pay rises awarded in the Public Sector.

During the 2017 general election campaign, Ms Reeves shared a Labour poster from 1945 promising a decent pension with the caption: “Love this poster from 1945. This time again, it’s Labour who will stand up for pensioners, defending the triple lock and winter fuel payments.”

A week earlier Angela Rayner, now Deputy Prime Minister, (huh?) had said: “Pensioners will be worried with cuts to pensions, death tax for social care, winter fuel allowance cuts, Tories the nasty party #ToryManifesto”

How two-faced is that?

I can just imagine the outrage and righteous indignation of Reeves & Raynor if the Tories had scrapped the winter fuel allowance. Not only did they not do that, in the winter of 22/23, in addition to retaining the Winter Fuel Allowance, they gave every household £400. Doesn't sound very nasty to me. Furthermore, when it comes to balancing the books, during the Pandemic, the Tory government (AKA 'nasty party') distributed £68.9 billion of furlough payments to 1.3 million employers covering 11.7 million individual jobs, and £28.1 billion over five SEISS grants to 2.9 million self-employed people. (The schemes' costs include an estimated £4.5 billion of error and fraud).

Charities warned in the wake of Reeves’s announcement that two million pensioners on low incomes will be hit hardest by her decision, which comes into effect in November. Age UK said more than 800,000 older people who live on very low incomes – under £218.25 a week for single pensioners and under £332.95 for couples – already miss out on pension credit.
The most needy get the allowance, from what I've read. Those living near the boundaries of any benefit entitlement are always going to feel the pinch, the most, as do those who earn just enough to attract the higher tax rate. That is life, in any political arena.
 
Can't say I see the logic of this. Being pragmatic may well mean that you have to abandon Socialism. and embrace Capitalism in its worst form, just for the sake of making things happen.
The thing is, if you don't attend to the needs of the population, supporting those with least, you end up with a fundamentally unstable society. From the little I understand, that's precisely what's been happening in the US - underfund public services, allow great swathes of your population to suffer from lack of education, health care and so on, and you may end up on the brink of civil war. So yes, it will make things happen, but not necessarily the things we'd want to see happen.
 
Can't say I see the logic of this. Being pragmatic may well mean that you have to abandon Socialism. and embrace Capitalism in its worst form, just for the sake of making things happen.
What, like slavery, low wages, children doing factory work, colonialism, land theft, genocide, environmental destruction?
 
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EU's economic migration policies which resulted in the UK having a far too abundant supply of cheap unskilled migrant labour which definitely forced down the wages of the lowest paid
The data doesn’t show that

I agree it will be true in some sectors, but it’s a large generalisation to say it forced down wages overall

“Similarly, the MAC review concluded that immigration had had little impact on average wages, according to previous research. Some studies had found a small negative impact on average wages, while others found positive average effects”

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/



By the way, the U.K. has far larger levels of wealth inequality and very much lower standards of living than equivalent economies in the EU, so FOM and EU membership is not the cause….the cause is 4 decades of neo liberal politics.

Leaving the EU was never a solution and rejoining won’t be the solution.
 
Basically archaic management did for UK motor industry, helped by lacklustre government support and failure to join the EEC.
The unions were just fighting for their jobs, which was exactly what they are supposed to do, especially in the face of unimaginative poor management.
Modern makers like Toyota have a much more constructive relationship with the unions, to everybody's advantage.
EEC / EU membership forced the U.K. to become more competitive.
 
.... but it’s a large generalisation to say it forced down wages overall
....
The people "forcing down" wages are the employers. We just need better wage regulation and this problem could be eliminated.
Maybe immigrants should be obliged to join a union before being eligible for work permits etc.
 
All I ask is for you to name one successful 'socialist' nation which is a good example of how a country could enhance everyone's life experiences that you believe socialism provides.
Surely that is not too much to ask or does this Utopia only exist in the minds of those who follow a socialist ideology or believe they should live a life of entitlement?

As for Hayek's opinion, I'll take the word of an expert acclaimed prize winning economist over that of people who have entrenched ideological views with no economics background.
I don't say that all socialist views are wrong, on the contrary many have been beneficial for bettering our society and I recognise that many socialist policies are good but unfortunately socialists it seems, think they are the only ones with compassion etc and hold the moral high ground in all things political which is utterly ludicrous.
Norway?
Used all of its oil revenue for the good of its society I believe, (I maybe wrong it has been known). Currently sitting on a Trillion dollar pot
 
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