Kitty Bandsaw 513, 613 and 612 shedding blade

[Jonm]

In a recent post problems with the kitty bandsaw came up, see links below.

I have a kitty 513 which seems to be identical to the 613. Cannot get on with it. Nothing seems damaged or worn but the blade will not stay on the wheels. I have taken the table off, used a rigid straight edge with wooden blocks to get the wheels in line, checked with the blade tensioned. Have adjusted the bottom wheel as well. Nothing seems to work.

I am using the blade which came with the machine, plan was to get it working then buy some tuffsaw blades. I am wondering if there is a problem with the blade. My other thought is that these saws have flat wheels so the blade is positioned with the teeth overhanging the edge of the wheel. Perhaps the more normal crowned wheels have a self centring effect.

It would appear that other members have had problems with these machines and I am asking if anyone else has any experience of these machines, good or bad and if there is something needed in the setup to get them working.

Garden Shed Projects

I am pretty frustrated with mine. I expected it to be as easy to use as the OP suggested but find it very difficult to set up. Thinking of selling it to maybe buy a different make. It’s a Kity 613.

Linwoodjoinery

Agree with jonm and garden shed projects. I had a Kity too and whatever I did or tried I could not get in with it. Spent hours and in the end got rid of it. Having only previously used big old cast band saws before this I was left disappointed with the Kity. Which is a shame as I have had other Kity machines which have been superb.

 

[pulleyt]

I bought a 513 613 model in the late 1980s and have been very pleased with it. I've never had a problem with blades staying on the wheels and have used 1/4" to 1" widths. But I haven't had to perform any adjustments outside of tightening and tensioning so I can't offer any advice other than they can run well.

It sat pretty idle for approximately 20 of those years until I started using it in anger again in 2015. I have since replaced the rear blade support bearing AND I will add recommendations for the Tuffsaw blades which transformed it from good to excellent for resawing.

Edit: I misremembered the model. sorry

 

[Jonm]

I bought a 513 model in the late 1980s and have been very pleased with it. I've never had a problem with blades staying on the wheels and have used 1/4" to 1" widths. But I haven't had to perform any adjustments outside of tightening and tensioning so I can't offer any advice other than they can run well.

It sat pretty idle for approximately 20 of those years until I started using it in anger again in 2015. I have since replaced the rear blade support bearing AND I will add recommendations for the Tuffsaw blades which transformed it from good to excellent for resawing.

Thank you for the reply. I am pleased someone has got one of these to work, gives me some hope I can get mine working. Do you set the blade with the teeth just overhanging the edge of the wheel as per the instructions or do you do something else. Any tips for setting it up would be appreciated.

 

[pulleyt]

Do you set the blade with the teeth just overhanging the edge of the wheel as per the instructions or do you do something else. Any tips for setting it up workday be appreciated.

My process for aligning the blade is as follows:

1. Loosen all the blade guides and retract the roller guide that supports the rear of the blade so that there is no interference with the blade as you put it on the wheels.
2. Put the blade onto the wheels and adjust the tension but not too tightly at first.
3. At this point the manual suggests that you turn the wheels by hand and adjust the Tension knob on the top of the machine until the teeth are running just off the edge of the bottom wheel.
4. Then adjust the Tilt knob located behind the top wheel and while turning the wheels by hand until the teeth are running just off the Top wheel.
   (This will likely as not affect the running of the blade on the bottom wheel so repeat steps 3 and 4 until the teeth are running just off both wheels. In my experience, once you have this set then future blade changes will only require adjustment of the Tension knob on the top of the machine and I check the positioning of the blade on the top wheel while turning the wheels and adjusting the Tension knob.)
   Once the blade is running nicely on both wheels I then adjust the blade guides.
5. For the rear guide, I advance the bearing roller towards the back of the blade while turning the wheels by hand. Once the blade stats spinning the guide stop and retract the guide by a quarter turn and lock in place.
6. Then adjust the top and bottom block guides to a paper width from the blade and lock in place.

Apologies if that is what you have already tried but that is what has worked for me.

I should mention that when I'm using a 1/4 blade for cutting curves I have found that the blade can pull off the wheels if I try reversing out of a cut with an unsteady hand. With care, and slowly, I can do it successfully.

I hope this may help,
Trevor

 

[Jonm]

Thank you for the information. I will try again and see how I get on.

 

[Garden Shed Projects]

My process for aligning the blade is as follows:

1. Loosen all the blade guides and retract the roller guide that supports the rear of the blade so that there is no interference with the blade as you put it on the wheels.
2. Put the blade onto the wheels and adjust the tension but not too tightly at first.
3. At this point the manual suggests that you turn the wheels by hand and adjust the Tension knob on the top of the machine until the teeth are running just off the edge of the bottom wheel.
4. Then adjust the Tilt knob located behind the top wheel and while turning the wheels by hand until the teeth are running just off the Top wheel.
   (This will likely as not affect the running of the blade on the bottom wheel so repeat steps 3 and 4 until the teeth are running just off both wheels. In my experience, once you have this set then future blade changes will only require adjustment of the Tension knob on the top of the machine and I check the positioning of the blade on the top wheel while turning the wheels and adjusting the Tension knob.)
   Once the blade is running nicely on both wheels I then adjust the blade guides.
5. For the rear guide, I advance the bearing roller towards the back of the blade while turning the wheels by hand. Once the blade stats spinning the guide stop and retract the guide by a quarter turn and lock in place.
6. Then adjust the top and bottom block guides to a paper width from the blade and lock in place.

Apologies if that is what you have already tried but that is what has worked for me.

I should mention that when I'm using a 1/4 blade for cutting curves I have found that the blade can pull off the wheels if I try reversing out of a cut with an unsteady hand. With care, and slowly, I can do it successfully.

I hope this may help,
Trevor

(4) don’t you find that you have to adjust the tension and tilt at the same time? If I adjust the tension only it tracks the blade off the wheel. For reference I am using tuffsaw blades so don’t think this is an issue.

 

[pulleyt]

(4) don’t you find that you have to adjust the tension and tilt at the same time? If I adjust the tension only it tracks the blade off the wheel. For reference I am using tuffsaw blades so don’t think this is an issue.

No, I can't remember the last time I adjusted the Tilt knob to be honest. I guess I did adjust both at some stage repeating steps 3 and 4 until the blade was running nicely on both wheels but now I only need to adjust the tension knob when replacing/changing the blade.

I would say that you can discount the blade as an issue
For me, increasing the tension tracks the blade towards the rear of the top wheel and decreasing the tension tracks towards the front of the top wheel.

 

[baldkev]

I had one and was happy with it after i resolved a tyre issue. Ive got a bigger machine now.
@Sachakins and @Chippymint helped me got mine fixed up. First, check ( without a blade ) that the tilt knob is actually working and tilting the top wheel. Then check the tension goes fully up and fully down. Apparently the tilt can come disconnected or sheared off.
I always had to adjust the tension and tilt knob when changing blades.... maybe @pulleyt has been lucky

 

[pulleyt]

maybe @pulleyt has been lucky

It seems I have

 

[Ttrees]

Shouldn't have to go near tracking if you keep the same blade on a flat tyred machine,
as the blade will track further off the wheels with greater tension applied.

So pointless adjusting tracking with a half tensioned blade, and one is just looking to damage threads
tracking on full tension.

Flat tires means things need to be set up more accurately than crowned tires.
I'd be checking for wheel alignment but no one wants to take the table off, (lol)
as is seemingly the case most prefer to go the lazy route and risk damage the bores in the wheels instead.
I've collected quite a few piccies of bandsaws by now, and that isn't a rare thing!


1 Start getting column leveled up in two orientations, for a plumbline to check wheel depth in cabinet, and also should the carriage need be scooted to left or right.

2 After which you can check alignment, i.e co-planar using a beam, a spirit level with a block to clear the cabinet.
Co planar will likely have the blade tracking in same location on bandwheels,
although the above phrase means different things to different people.
Either way this beam should be parallel with column.

3 Then you can check lower wheel alignment, which is adjusted by jacking screws on most machines
east/west with a loose drive belt I might add!

That done
Make sure the motor pulley looks in line with wheel position...

If you have issue still then I'd be looking for left right slop in top wheel.
Should this be the case then I'd be looking to see if both wheels are slightly proud on the shafts,
say if there's a retaining washer which applies pressure on inner race of wheel bearings.
If the bearing spacer is worn then the bearing won't sit proud of the shaft and retaining washer will not be doing anything.

The only thing left after that is tire condition.
Easy to dress them with a plane iron on a rebated block.

I've documented this in much detail on my italian machine should you wish to look.

All the best

Tom

 

[Jonm]

It seems I have

Maybe not luck. You bought the machine some 35 years ago so new or nearly new. Looked after it and did not mess about with it and it still works well.

 

[Jonm]

no one wants to take the table off, lol

I have taken the table off mine, time consuming so not something to be done regularly.

3 Then you can check lower wheel alignment, which is adjusted by jacking screws on most machines
east/west with a loose drive belt I might add!

here are a couple of photos of the lower wheel adjustment. I have tried adjusting mine but without positive results as yet.

with locking bolt and washer removed

 

[Jonm]

I've documented this in much detail on my italian machine should you wish to look.

Is it possible to post a link?

 

[Ttrees]

If you've used a beam then you should be happy enough with some purity.
I've posted a vid called wheel alignment and troubleshooting on an Italain bandsaw,
but for folks who despise videos, I can post some piccies
Attempting to post this in order, and as frugally and accuretely as possible.

Could prob do this bit with a spirit level, which doesn't have a twist
if you're not skint

Lighting is everything if using plumbob

With machine plummed, the this to check wheel depth, and carriage.

Two piccies underneath for co planar check.

After co planar, then checking jacking adjustment afterwards

This photo below is misleading, I should screenshot my vid, as you can only check when suitable for machine heftyish blade installed and tensioned

The drive belt should be lining up, best to test when not too tight,
and see any vibration is apparent without blade installed also.

If there's still an issue, then I'd suspect wheel spacers or tire condition is the cause.

This is probably worth checking first, as you'd likely need to go through same rigmarole again.
Note bearing is proud of shaft so retaining washer is pressing on inner race .

I'd check tires after that.
Ps video on above


Tom

 

[Fergie 307]

I have the 612 and have had no problems with it. They are quite sensitive to tilt adjustment but having set mine up many moons ago I have never had to touch it since, despite numerous blade changes. You will need to increase tension progressively, checking the tilt with each increase by spinning it manually and checking the blade runs true. Once you reach the desired tension you are good to go. Mine is set up normally with a fine 1/2 inch blade. I have also used it with a coarse 3/4 blade and found no need to change the tilt. Haven't ever used very narrow blades, so that might be different.

 

[quintain]

It seems I have

I have also...perhaps the 'kiss of death' but my 20++yr 613 with very light but frequent use has worked well for me. 1/4" blade to normally used 3/4". BUT always be very careful in withrawing the partially completed cut, it is easy to pull a 1/4" blade of the wheel/s. Pulleyt describes the renewal of blade procedure excellently, except I seem to v very slightly adjust the upper wheel tilt at each blade change.

 

[baldkev]

If you've used a beam then you should be happy enough with some purity.
I've posted a vid called wheel alignment and troubleshooting on an Italain bandsaw,
but for folks who despise videos, I can post some piccies
Attempting to post this in order, and as frugally and accuretely as possible.

Could prob do this bit with a spirit level, which doesn't have a twist
if you're not skint
View attachment 134009
Lighting is everything if using plumbob
View attachment 134014

With machine plummed, the this to check wheel depth, and carriage.
View attachment 134017

Two piccies underneath for co planar check.
View attachment 134015

View attachment 134016

After co planar, then checking jacking adjustment afterwards

This photo below is misleading, I should screenshot my vid, as you can only check when suitable for machine heftyish blade installed and tensioned
View attachment 134018
View attachment 134019

The drive belt should be lining up, best to test when not too tight,
and see any vibration is apparent without blade installed also.
View attachment 134020

If there's still an issue, then I'd suspect wheel spacers or tire condition is the cause.

This is probably worth checking first, as you'd likely need to go through same rigmarole again.
Note bearing is proud of shaft so retaining washer is pressing on inner race .
View attachment 134021

I'd check tires after that.
Ps video on above


Tom

What machine are you on now tom?? Those wheels look huuuge!

I had a mix of 6mm and 12mm blades for my kity. The 6mm obviously for curves and 12mm for straight.
There is of course the possibility of a lack of experience..... the kity was my first bandsaw, so maybe mpre experienced members worked out the machines best 'spot'

I bought a startrite last year, but have yet to actually use it

 

[Ttrees]

Still have my Griggio which is a forever saw to me, I won't outgrow it ever as it's enough to lift for one man, I'd have been more than happy with a decent 500 or 540 machine.
I have more work I could do, and might delve into some more stuff yet.
Same issues prevalent in many many brands out there, still machines being made which rocks about,
some new stuff from far east very noticeable.
I can see what Erik from the creek was talking bout, with his suggestion of the older Centauro's being a real good machine, now unavailable AFAIK in USA.

Still have to make spacers, even though the jobs done, as being a bandsaw fanatic means I have interest in helping others.
I am being a stickler about these spacers, as I want more accurate measurements, which aint so easy without a skookum lathe, should some folk want to make their own/get some made...
not convinced whatsoever by those OEM ones TBH, I will say no more on that.

If you are asking about tracking with narrow blades...
Not that I've used much narrow blades, only have one really narrow blade.
but have certainly seen quite a few Italian machines with flat tires with damage caused from the set,
new and old.
Some say this can only happen with carbide tipped blades, and some not....
That could be down to alignment, as some folk are a bit, lets say
"too busy" to notice spelching of the underside of the work,
not to mention other factors like noise, and so on...

There really has been a lot of information lacking in this subject of setting up a machine correctly.
Hence the debate on that, which conversations doesn't exist yet in UK due to most folks using crowned tires, and the fact what CT blades used to cost/still do for some.
Marc Spagnoulo was one of the only ones who has mentioned a beam in passing comments, wherever he read/heard that from?

Back to your question on tracking narrow blades on flat tires
I can answer this from a frugal perspective
(reasonable assumption the rubber is getting on a bit on these Kity or Inca machines, and rubber is possibly easier worn)

If you notice wear, and wish to be as frugal as possible, then you can even out that wear to a large extent.
Even with my tires and top wheel spacer worn, I was able to track the narrow thin gauge blade which has little set without issue, pretty much wherever I wanted, say beyond dead centre.
It will be interesting to see what it's like now with things sorted.
so at the very very least, that would at least give one twice as much life, should rubber be soft.

All these adjustments to do so become easier to understand when a beam is used.
What might fool a lot of folks is tracking a blade forward on the lower wheel,
the shaft needs to be moved down in the housing,
i.e South/6 o clock, which seems backwards if you haven't seen it with your own eyes!

That's not saying it's advisable to track such a narrow blade on a large machine so far forward to the front, as that would likely be straining the blade more than in the centre of the wheel, since flat tires favour tension whilst running blades to the front, and once again you can see this with the beam.

Hope that somewhat answers this.

Tom

 

[clogs]

Jonm;
please tell me what machine has that kinda awful bearing/shaft alignment/adjustment.....
to me it seems home made BUT I'm sure it isn't.....
been so long since I looked at mine....(still in it's packing crate after the move here) a floor standing old German thing.... (gotta be 40 plus years old, I've had it over 20 years and it was secondhand then) ....
must get it outta the box and look just for interest.....
Has anyone got photo's of other designs.....?

In the past I have done away with 2 seperate bearings plus dumb special spacers on hubs and idlers and modified units for these bearings...with just simple shimming or engineered fit....
once tightened down they are pre loaded to the correct amount....(notice the split in the inner race)....
They come in many sizes so quite adaptable.....used as hub bearings on trailers, cars and transit sized trucks.....so suitable for any load we can give em.....like speed.....not sure of the RPM's of a 13" wheel at 100mph.....but good enough for me...

 

[Jonm]

Jonm;
please tell me what machine has that kinda awful bearing/shaft alignment/adjustment.....

It is from my kitty 513 which is very similar/identical to a kitty 613.