is it just me?

[thetyreman]

look at the ridiculously low prices here! https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/5532678 ... =related-4

seems way too low considering the cost of the wood, labour and materials to me, what do you think?

 

[MikeG.]

Well it is a bit chunky-looking......

 

[Matt@]

imported then polished here?

My wife does knitting and sometimes flogs it. By the time she totals her hrs up, shes earning about £1 an hour lol. Some people do it for the love or something to do....

 

[morfa]

Or just a hobby job and they're not worrying about time. Just paying for materials.

 

[thetyreman]

I can understand it being a hobby, but surely they're making a loss here? I wonder how many hours went into making it? lol

 

[bugbear]

Lots of labour, parts and skill.

Poor proportion and design.

I'd guess someone starting up.

BugBear

 

[custard]

Look at the hinge. It's superficially similar to the Smart Hinge or the Neat Hinge, but look closer and it's a cheap far eastern copy. Not surprising as a decent pair of hinges alone costs about £25-30,

http://www.smartboxmaker.com/product/product-3/

I normally charge in the region of £300-500 for a jewellery box; it would have a lift out tray, quality hardware including a lock and a hand cut escutcheon, cross banding or other inlay decoration, a monogrammed solid silver inset title plate, and be lined with pigskin suede. However, I barely cover costs at those prices and functionally it's little different from the £40 example you linked to.

A career as an independent furniture maker really is the most enchanting and fulfilling occupation imaginable...the one tiny fly in the ointment is that you slowly starve to death!

 

[doctor Bob]

A career as an independent furniture maker really is the most enchanting and fulfilling occupation imaginable...the one tiny fly in the ointment is that you slowly starve to death!

I take my hat off to you. I do hand made kitchens, expensive ones, between 25-30 a year plus other fitted rooms. We also do free standing quality pieces but only if the customer has previously had a kitchen.
Just done a big oak dining table, £3000 ish, we won't have made money on it. Over the years I've made many pieces, 4 poster beds, tables, sideboards, bookcases, all are break even as really there is a ceiling on what you can charge.
I found at the beginning the enjoyment of the work was sufficient pay, soon wore off though and now I like to make a few bob and have a few nice trimmings.

Yes that box is very cheap.

 

[DrPhill]

........Poor proportion and design.......

I would be interested in learning what you mean - if you could explain in more detail I would be very interested. I have made some boxes, probably with less skill, but do not know how to judge the proportion and design. A little learning might help my future efforts, or at least increase my appreciation of better design and proportion.

 

[marcros]

The timber is a bit chunky, but I think that the proportions are otherwise ok. Approx 3x2x1 which is what I usually start at.

 

[Ali]

Possibly made by her dad (Kev in the shed at the bottom of the garden), given the other box for sale and some internet sleuthing ( https://www.instagram.com/p/BVDJcPllJ8p ... =esgreen93 ) .

Like Doctor Bob I too doth my cap to any independent (furniture) maker, very tough game. I planned my woodworking shop for about 8 years before I even bought a tool reading and studying as much as I could when one day I came across some writings by Kevin Ley (ex-RAF furnituremaker) who warned that I shouldn't expect to compete with other furniture manufacturers.

And you can't expect to compete against guys (and girls) who dabble in this as a sideline, with no rent, taxes or other commercial costs. The wood was probably lying around, or an offcut or something else where it's virtually free. Or maybe Dad just wants to help his daughter in her new venture - fair enough and that doesn't really matter.

What does matter is the lack of appreciation for the value of the work. Either by the maker or the seller who doesn't appreciate the value of the pieces creating an expectation of low prices by the consumer.

Other creative industries talk of educating the customer, explaining the value in the work (e.g. quality materials, craftsmanship, individuality). Maybe due to the fractured state of the woodworking industry there is a real lack of knowledge from the general public regarding work. I am 35 and made it through college in D&T without ever touching a piece of hardwood. Some of the people younger than me know even less!!! they have no understanding of engineered wood, they have been brought up on flat pack furniture and Ikea designs. it's a real problem!!

 

[Keith 66]

I used to build boats for a living? Now work in a school as a D&T technician, money is not good but far better than being a self unemployed fool.
I build cigar box guitars as a hobby, no point trying to sell them as like that jewelery box there is always someone who is willing to make & sell something for less than i can buy the parts. Its the ebay & etsy thing, a race to the bottom, but you will never beat the man in china working for a bowl of rice per day. Ocasionally you will sell something truly unique for top dollar but its best not to try making a living at it as such days are few & far between.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

I dabble as a hobby since retirement a few years back and have no intention of trying to create a business, preferring to provide the odd minor bit of work for friends on a bottle of single malt basis. But I did spend a career in business after training as an accountant and started to think about some of the issues which need to be addressed if we want to turn woodworking into a more generally profitable career choice.

The first point which has already been made is that we are selling to the premium end of the market - people mostly unconstrained by cost. To illustrate - Ikea may sell a dining table and six chairs for £300-800, John Lewis for £1200-2500, and designer hand made probably needs to sell for £3000-6000 to make a profit.

The reasons Ikea can sell so cheaply are fairly clear - higher volumes give more buying power for materials, enable extensive automated production processes, ensure product design minimises production costs. Packaging, shipping, selling and marketing costs per unit are all reduced.

So what can be done to address the higher end of the market for which cost is not the main barrier to improve perceptions of craftsmanship and desirability.

- create a trade body with common trade mark, craftsman only membership - proven skills only
- create standard contractual relationships - T&Cs, standards, complaints processes
- organise shared stand at ideal home and other exhibitions
- provide material (advertorials) for home and design media promoting members skills (focus on ...... this month)
- promote skills and heritage - from Chippendale and Sheraton to contemporary high quality design
- stress renewable nature of materials not chop down rainforest scarcity
- training courses and advice for members covering finance, employment law, pricing, design software etc etc
- enable local equipment and facility sharing
- consider customer sharing to allow manufacturers to specialise somewhat

This is probably but a small part of what needs to be done. But if we don't change there is no reason to expect the market and customer to change. We will simply carry on as now bemoaning the fact that skilled woodworkers are under appreciated and that the public put cost first in the buying decision.

To compete at the top end of the John Lewis market we need to make sure potential customers appreciate and value what is provided - even if it is just the branding and status of a product from the wood workers trade body

We also need to ensure that those who have the talent for design and craftsmanship have the business tools to succeed.

This will all cost money - but only those engaged in the business can judge whether it would be a price worth paying to change their futures.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

I dabble as a hobby since retirement a few years back and have no intention of trying to create a business, preferring to provide the odd minor bit of work for friends on a bottle of single malt basis. But I did spend a career in business after training as an accountant and started to think about some of the issues which need to be addressed if we want to turn woodworking into a more generally profitable career choice.

The first point which has already been made is that we are selling to the premium end of the market - people mostly unconstrained by cost. To illustrate - Ike may sell a dining table and six chairs for £300-800, John Lewis for £1200-2500, and designer hand made probably needs to sell for £3000-6000 to make a profit.

The reasons are clear - higher volumes give more buying power for materials, enable extensive automated production processes, ensure product design minimises production costs. Packaging, shipping, selling and marketing costs per unit are all reduced.

So what can be done to address the higher end of the market for which cost is not the main barrier to improve perceptions of craftsmanship and desirability.

- create a trade body with common trade mark, craftsman only membership - proven skills only
- create standard contractual relationships - T&Cs, standards, complaints processes
- organise shared stand at ideal home and other exhibitions
- provide material (advertorials) for home and design media promoting members skills (focus on ...... this month)
- promote skills and heritage - from Chippendale and Sheraton to contemporary high quality design
- stress renewable nature of materials not chop down rainforest scarcity
- training courses and advice for members covering finance, employment law, pricing, design software etc etc
- enable local equipment and facility sharing
- consider customer sharing to allow manufacturers to specialise somewhat

This is probably but a small part of what needs to be done. But if we don't change there is no reason to expect the market and customer to change. We will simply carry on as now bemoaning the fact that skilled woodworkers are under appreciated and that the public put cost in prime place in the buying decision.

To compete at the top end of the John Lewis market we need to make sure the potential customer base appreciate and value what is provided - even if it is the wood workers trade body brand associated with enhancing the status.

We also need to ensure that those who have the talent for design and craftsmanship have the business tools to succeed.

This will all cost money - but only those engaged in the business can judge whether it would be a price worth paying to change their futures.

 

[Keith 66]

The boatbuilding industry has such a body the British marine industries federation, it is costly to join & of little relavance to a small company. There is also the Wooden boatbuilders trade association a great little organisation that punches above its weight. Can it influence buying trends though? I doubt it very much. Likewise any woodworking furniture trade body that tries to influence trends will find it nigh on impossible, people are too addicted to cheap stuff & simply wont buy things perceived as expensive.

 

[Lonsdale73]

P

And you can't expect to compete against guys (and girls) who dabble in this as a sideline, with no rent, taxes or other commercial costs.

I am, soon-to-be-was, a photographer, a one time profession that has been similarly blighted by dabblers and sideliners. I spent years building up contacts, regular accounts and associations with a variety of sources to keep me gainfully employed most of the time. It was hand-to-mouth stuff for a long time, finally got to a point where I was doing okay only for it all to fall apart within a matter of months. When trying to get established, I found if I asked permission to photograph an event I was often told they already had a regular photographer and so no, my presence would not be welcomed. I had more positive response from the smaller events, once that were of little commercial value to the big hitters and that's where I focused (nae pun intended!) my attention. My endeavours not only raised my profile but also that of the venues and organisers I was working with, it 'put them on the map', as more than one of them told me. It also attracted the attention of the wannabes. My work was already very reasonably priced but I cannot compete with those who do it for peanuts or - worse - 'free'. Same principle as drug dealers, free till they got a foot in the door and forced the former regular to look elsewhere. Not free now and however much they try to emulate my work, they lack the knowledge, experience and skills to do so.

For the past six years, I'd have a choice of events to cove on Boxing Day, sometimes managing to fit two in on the same day. This year, I have none, it's been nearly two months since my last booking and unless an awful lot happens in the next few days, December will be the ninth month of 2017 where income hasn't come even close to meeting the mortgage. My next 'booking' isn't till May!