Is it any wonder why.....

[Jacob]

Interesting, if not an accurate comment.

The run down definitely is. It gets reported everyday from one direction or another- yesterday they were talking about the run down of music and art education in state schools . Not in private schools of course, where there is massive investment in both.

 

[Ozi]

You'd probably have to pay 3x more tax and live with a personal tax free allowance of just under £7000 before the 52% tax rate kicks in. Oh, and add on 100% tax on your car and a huge annual road tax/charge/thingy/whatever its called nowadays.

If we put income tax back to the 30% it was when I first payed tax - obviously not all in one go - it would be a good start. Also getting everybody to play by the same rules, even if you are part of the government

 

[Terry - Somerset]

I don't understand what is going on - nothing unusual about that.

UK public expenditure has increased as a % of GDP to the highest levels since the 1980s - bar covid and the 2008-10 financial crisis. The fall in public service quality is not obviously due to low taxation and cuts - perhaps budgets have not increased sufficiently.

• have public expectations changed which means that a return to earlier low levels of taxation is unachievable, and that taxes should be even higher
• is there some massive fraud or corruption syphoning off tax revenues to offshore accounts
• is the money spent on public services being poorly directed, managed or wasted

The first bullet is a real possibility - but honesty in fiscal policy seems subordinate to political expediency and electoral ambition for both major parties.

The second is the stuff of conspiracy theorists - but to my mind needs quantification and evidence to be plausible.

The final bullet may be a substantial contributor to problems. Too much legislation adding to cost, delay and inefficiency often the product of vocal minority groups. Overcentralisation making local democracy close to ineffectual. Attachment to obviously failing projects and policies.

A society in which all feel empowered and content with their lot is a worthy goal but there is a price to be paid.

Were the UK a person it would be past middle age, comfortable, risk averse, contentedly growing older and weaker. Change is disruptive and difficult but if we want "better" we need to accept it.

 

[aet1]

We can't expect quality services if we don't pay, whether it is the NHS, police or filling potholes in roads. The constant call for lower taxes seems to ignore the simple fact that they are what pays for our services, but of course those on high income may well use private medical insurance, live in very safe places (perhaps behind a big gate) and even their big cars won't be as rough when they go in a pothole as my old cheap small car.
I would agree that there is more crime, and that only a fraction even gets a first glance by the police. Of course I'm only using personal experiences to say this - like my car being written off and my wife narrowly missing being decapitated by a tractor careering on the wrong side of a bend - I had a police inspector as a witness, the officers that came were really helpful - but there was no attempt to try to find the driver who would have been going to work and probably does the same journey at the same time every day.
Over the last year my wife has has helped 3 women she has discovered on the same open ground who have been sexually assaulted and just left in the open with ripped or missing clothes - I have yet to see even a mention in the papers no matter a court case. I've tried to get the council to put a camera in the adjacent car park - which might also stop the rubbish being left and the faeces from people who find it a quiet place to go but it must be a very low priority for them.
But it's not all a recent decline. My wife was abducted and sexually assaulted 22 years ago on her way to her car after work during., not a thing done by the police (it was near Kings Cross Hospital where she worked, no offer of help or support, no help by the NHS - and she has not been able to work since, so I do have an axe to grind and I am bitter.
This country has dragged itself to new lows. I agree with Jacob, and I agree with him that Brexit is evidence that the people leading it were only doing so for self-interest because I certainly don't see any benefits, there's not even a rotting Truss lettuce in the shops.

 

[Jacob]

We can't expect quality services if we don't pay, whether it is the NHS, police or filling potholes in roads. The constant call for lower taxes seems to ignore the simple fact that they are what pays for our services, .....

Yep lower taxes means lower services. We can see it before us everyday. How could it be otherwise?
Things were much better when taxes were high - always the case.

 

[deema]

The harsher the penal system the lower the crime rate. Evidenced by say Saudi Arabia. Now, just try sticking two fingers up at someone there and see what happens. If you commit a murder…,well you never get a chance to do it again. No fear of pick pockets or silly vandalism. You might not agree with a number of their policies, but its exceptionally safe and crime free!

 

[aet1]

I don't understand what is going on - nothing unusual about that.

UK public expenditure has increased as a % of GDP to the highest levels since the 1980s - bar covid and the 2008-10 financial crisis. The fall in public service quality is not obviously due to low taxation and cuts - perhaps budgets have not increased sufficiently.

• have public expectations changed which means that a return to earlier low levels of taxation is unachievable, and that taxes should be even higher
• is there some massive fraud or corruption syphoning off tax revenues to offshore accounts
• is the money spent on public services being poorly directed, managed or wasted

The first bullet is a real possibility - but honesty in fiscal policy seems subordinate to political expediency and electoral ambition for both major parties.

The second is the stuff of conspiracy theorists - but to my mind needs quantification and evidence to be plausible.

The final bullet may be a substantial contributor to problems. Too much legislation adding to cost, delay and inefficiency often the product of vocal minority groups. Overcentralisation making local democracy close to ineffectual. Attachment to obviously failing projects and policies.

A society in which all feel empowered and content with their lot is a worthy goal but there is a price to be paid.

Were the UK a person it would be past middle age, comfortable, risk averse, contentedly growing older and weaker. Change is disruptive and difficult but if we want "better" we need to accept it.

Terry asks "have public expectations changed which means that a return to earlier low levels of taxation is unachievable, and that taxes should be even higher" ...
I certainly don't think expectations are higher, I remember a time when the police were visible on the streets - and kept control of drunks, I remember going to my GP with no appointment and just waiting for my turn - and the doctor would stay until there were no patients waiting, I remember cycling along a road without fear of falling into a pothole, and there being people picking up litter (not that there was much until McDonalds and take-aways came. I remember making a phone call to the local council offices without having to wait ages for an answer and you could ask for advice about planning without being charged. I also remember a time when there were no class-room assistants, and when teachers and pupils didn't have to waste time on so many tests. Other countries manage to keep standards.

 

[Jacob]

I don't understand what is going on - nothing unusual about that.

It's simpler than you think!

UK public expenditure has increased as a % of GDP to the highest levels since the 1980s - bar covid and the 2008-10 financial crisis. The fall in public service quality is not obviously due to low taxation and cuts

Oh yes it is. Listen to all the strikers - they are all complaining about cuts and underfunding. It's not only about wages it's about maintaining the services themselves.

- perhaps budgets have not increased sufficiently.

Same thing

• have public expectations changed which means that a return to earlier low levels of taxation is unachievable, and that taxes should be even higher

Lower taxes has always led to poorer services and even recessions. 1979 under Thatcher the top rate was reduced from 83% to 60% and the basic rate from 33% to 30%. Result - the first Thatcher recession. More followed and UK industry was decimated and never recovered.

• is there some massive fraud or corruption syphoning off tax revenues to offshore accounts

Yes

• is the money spent on public services being poorly directed, managed or wasted

Yes but largely due to underfunding and the resultant weaknesses.

The first bullet is a real possibility - but honesty in fiscal policy seems subordinate to political expediency and electoral ambition for both major parties.

Time it was changed

The second is the stuff of conspiracy theorists - but to my mind needs quantification and evidence to be plausible.

It's all there for the taking UK overseas territories top list of world’s leading tax havens

The final bullet may be a substantial contributor to problems. Too much legislation adding to cost, delay and inefficiency

Quite the opposite - deregulation adds to cost, delay and inefficiency. Witness Brexit - the greatest failed exercise in de-regulation ever attempted!
The whole point of regulation is to ensure quality, safety, facilitate trade with guaranteed minimum standards, and so on.

...

A society in which all feel empowered and content with their lot is a worthy goal but there is a price to be paid.

Taxation is the price of civilisation

..... Change is disruptive and difficult but if we want "better" we need to accept it.

Yep. Up the revolution!

 

[Spectric]

How much of our problems are down to the want now and pay later culture, plus we expect everything like doctors, social care and libraries etc but don't realise it has to be paid for somehow. Then the government spending what is does not have and not keeping hold of the reins and it is easy to see why we have a mess.

Taxation is the price of civilisation

Exactly, just that not everyone contributes their fair share.

 

[John Brown]

As far as I know, old people(or those who act old), have been making "why oh why" noises about young people for a hundred years or more.
Our family motto(or one of them anyway) is "act old later".

 

[Jacob]

How much of our problems are down to the want now and pay later culture, plus we expect everything like doctors, social care and libraries etc but don't realise it has to be paid for somehow. Then the government spending what is does not have and not keeping hold of the reins and it is easy to see why we have a mess.

Easy solution - increase taxes, especially top rates (they've got more money than they need).

Exactly, just that not everyone contributes their fair share.

That's just a detail and 'twas ever thus.
More important - a lot of people seem to think tax is just a temporary unwelcome inconvenience and could be reduced further. Corporation tax is a good one - it encourages re -investment instead of profit taking.

 

[mwinfrance]

If you commit a murder…,well you never get a chance to do it again

That depends upon who you are , the ruling classes and the leaders and those with the right "connections" in Saudi Arabia, can and do get away with murder and other crimes regularly.

 

[Fergie 307]

I entirely agree with idea that we should all pay more tax to pay for services. My only concern is that we should be cautious about how high we go with the top rate. I think if you go back to the 80% plus figures then you de- incentivise those people from making the money in the first place, or encourage them to bigger off altogether, in which case you don't just lose their top rate, but all their contributions. As to the "they have more than they need" argument, this has always been the stance of the hard left. If we were all only allowed to keep what we need then my goodness life would be fairly grim. And who is to judge what is enough? Am I allowed to go on holiday abroad, or must I go to Cleethorpes? Can I have a nice car, or must I drive a Trabant? I am sure just about everyone on this forum has a lot of kit they don't "need". Personally that is why I have worked bloody hard all my life, so I can afford things I want, and that give me pleasure.

 

[Jacob]

I entirely agree with idea that we should all pay more tax to pay for services. My only concern is that we should be cautious about how high we go with the top rate. I think if you go back to the 80% plus figures then you de- incentivise those people from making the money in the first place,

or encourages them to try to make more? Has anybody ever been deterred from making money by taxation? I doubt it - except at the bottom end where things like business rates can break a small company

or encourage them to bigger off altogether,

It's an old and oft repeated argument, but in fact nobody has ever demonstrated that these people move about, except for the odd exception. We don't find immigrants from high tax regimes coming here in droves, nor vice versa.

in which case you don't just lose their top rate, but all their contributions. As to the "they have more than they need" argument, this has always been the stance of the hard left.

It's been the basis of varied tax rates from day one. Nothing to do with the hard left. The hard right have to tax too and tax the wealthier higher, albeit reluctantly!

If we were all only allowed to keep what we need then my goodness life would be fairly grim.

Nobody suggests that. It's a "reductio ad absurdam".

 

[whereistheceilidh]

I don't understand what is going on - nothing unusual about that.

UK public expenditure has increased as a % of GDP to the highest levels since the 1980s - bar covid and the 2008-10 financial crisis. The fall in public service quality is not obviously due to low taxation and cuts - perhaps budgets have not increased sufficiently.

• have public expectations changed which means that a return to earlier low levels of taxation is unachievable, and that taxes should be even higher
• is there some massive fraud or corruption syphoning off tax revenues to offshore accounts
• is the money spent on public services being poorly directed, managed or wasted

The first bullet is a real possibility - but honesty in fiscal policy seems subordinate to political expediency and electoral ambition for both major parties.

The second is the stuff of conspiracy theorists - but to my mind needs quantification and evidence to be plausible.

The final bullet may be a substantial contributor to problems. Too much legislation adding to cost, delay and inefficiency often the product of vocal minority groups. Overcentralisation making local democracy close to ineffectual. Attachment to obviously failing projects and policies.

A society in which all feel empowered and content with their lot is a worthy goal but there is a price to be paid.

Were the UK a person it would be past middle age, comfortable, risk averse, contentedly growing older and weaker. Change is disruptive and difficult but if we want "better" we need to accept it.

Apologies for going back to Terry's post...have been busy & there were some key points in the debate...
There has been massive fraud..... billions spent on useless PPE covid kit ....& fraud on unregulated & poorly supervised pandemic loans. See BBC for this. FT recently ran some articles suggesting some 33bn in tax was underpaid due to evasion. ...& the rate of prosecution is declining..
Money spent on public services is being wasted. I would like a strong armed services but defence procurement is wasting bilions...Ajax APC ..Upholder submarines... the list is long & costly...still! IMHO privatisation has wasted billions...rail....payroll service.
& the waste elsewhere....councils...NHS...
I am happy to pay tax.....it pays for the things I value. But all should pay fairly.. & it is too precious to waste

 

[Fergie 307]

In defence It has always seemed to me that we are deluded enough to still consider ourselves a major power. Developing your own tanks and other equipment might have made sense at one time, but not for many years. Look at the SA80, god knows how much money spent and it is still a piece of junk compared to the equivalent US manufactured weapons that could have been bought at a fraction of the cost. Like wise the Challenger tank, unlike the SA80 a good bit of kit by all accounts, but at what cost in development, when we were only ever going to have a handful of the things anyway. Or an aircraft carrier for goodness sake. Hilarious to see our new flagship meet up with one of the USN carrier battle groups recently. The support vessels for that one US carrier put our entire navy to shame. A far cry from our heyday, when the Royal navy was the most powerful in the world, and could boast dozens of capital ships, battleships, carriers and cruisers. Is it just pride that leads to such foolishness, I dont know, but a collossal waste of money.

 

[thetyreman]

very bad and innaproriate sentence for the crime committed, to me this looks like a serious crime and deserves a pretty severe punishment.

 

[woodhutt]

very bad and innaproriate sentence for the crime committed, to me this looks like a serious crime and deserves a pretty severe punishment.

Well done for trying to drag the post back on topic.

 

[JimJay]

That depends upon who you are , the ruling classes and the leaders and those with the right "connections" in Saudi Arabia, can and do get away with murder and other crimes regularly.

And you feel that the same doesn't apply elsewhere? Where is Lucky Lucan when you need to make a point like this - and are public executions of Brazilian electricians still acceptable in the UK?

 

[mwinfrance]

And you feel that the same doesn't apply elsewhere?

Not at all, pointing out the massive inaccuracy of the comment that I replied to , does not in any way mean that I'm blind to problems elsewhere.If you seriously feel that it in order to refute a comment concerning what happens in one country ( I know Saudi Arabia and the emirates, I have also seen first hand how their rulers comport themselves when away from the gaze of the media ) that it is necessary to mention all others ? Then the server hosting this websitre would have to be running on Amazon's Elastic cloud to allow for the data storage and bandwidth.Also what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, you didn't mention all the other states and societies around the world where who you know is much more important ( when it applies to crimes committed ) that what the crimes are.

I'm not in the UK, I left well over 30 years ago, specifically to avoid the xenophobic "blame the others, especially the poor and the brown and black people" mentality that was being pushed to people, and which unfortunately they were lapping up, my immediate family there included.I had a thriving business there and had I stayed I would have very probably inherited 7 figures when my father died.He died in the month before I left the UK, i had probably been disinherited by then ( I neither know nor care ) despite my building his business up with him. I cut off all contact ( having informed them that they disgusted me ) when I discovered that my family were all national front supporters ( I will not use capitals letters on that or similar names ever ) the rest may be dead by now, or not, it does not interest me. Brexit did not surprise me one bit.I have met "ex-pat" Brits here in France who voted for it because ( I quote ) "There are too many blacks everywhere" . Many of them have since had to leave themselves, "good riddance". France has enough ( even one is too many ) racists and xenophobes who are"home grown".

re The UK,and what it has become..I have ( I mentioned in another thread ) kept pet rats, very intelligent animals.Rats will leave a sinking ship when it is obvious that it is going down fast.I left the UK and have never regretted it for a moment.Unfortunately Brexit has made it much very much harder for others to do the same. You too live in mainland Europe, apparently since quite some time, I imagine that like me you shake your head ruefully at what transpires in the UK, and are sympathetic for those who are caught there now, but we jumped ship when we could.

Before someone comes back with "well if it is so bad , why do all the migrants want to come to the UK"..Simple, the vast majority speak english ( other european languages are much harder to learn and require far greater proficiency in order to survive, work or open a business ), and the "black economy" employing "illegals" is far bigger in the UK than in other european countries, even Spain.SWMBO was horrified when I explained gangmasters to her ( they did not exist when I left the UK ) ..She said ( as do many other french when it is explained to them ) "surely that kind of exploitation cannot be legal".

re the OS.. and OP.. I noticed when in the UK ( and the same thing is the case here ) that the majority of judges and magistrates, are completely "out of touch" and seems to live in another world ( I remember Lord Longford being a perfect example , re his thoughts on Myra Hindley being a reformed person who should have been released ,because she said she had "found god" ..how does one find that which does not exist and has never existed ) sentencing frequently appears to be handed down as if the judges and magistrates feel that giving a nonsensical light sentence is somehow "sticking it to the man", as if they themselves were not the personification of "the man".

edited for typos