Invasion of US Capitol building

[billw]

GOP ???????

Cheers James

Grand Old Party = Republicans

 

[D_W]

Which might also happen I suppose, if the GOP fractured it might embolden the progressive left. to gamble. The two party system does seem to be struggling to cope with the current demographic.

I just can't see it - to divide influence and dilute ability to collect money or affect change (which allows you to collect more money). I can't see either party doing it - the US just isn't set up to have that happen any time soon because it would guarantee the other side winning. If the GOP split, it may cause a small minority of far left progressives to leave just because they could afford to, but a similar split wouldn't occur in the democratic party.

I don't personally want to see either of them having unchecked legislative ability - they both act like morons when they're in charge of both parts of congress and the executive branch, and they get really intellectually dishonest (more even than normal).

 

[billw]

Do you think there has been an election in the last 50 years where the US hasn't done something to manipulate soviet or russian elections, or the converse? It's daily business. Would you like to contend the English never get involved in any of this kind of meddling, either? It's part of superpowers screwing with each other.

Yup, this is very true. There's no way that nations don't interfere with elections when it's in their interests. I certainly don't think the UK is innocent of doing it as much as the Russians and Chinese are.

 

[Jameshow]

Grand Old Party = Republicans

Thanks.

I think that the far right of the republicans will be in the wilderness for a long time to come.

Much like the far left post Corbyn here in the UK.

The rest if us can get on with the compormises of politics / life and the joy of woodwork!!

Cheers James

 

[selectortone]

You appear to have swallowed the party line in a big way. Have you ever heard of 77 Brigade? It's a British army internet assault unit, specifically designed to keep us all safe from democracy. From wikipedia:

That's just one of many UK based government run departments who have a specific remit to create fake news, change opinion and generally muddy the waters. Its not just government, because we have moved to a facist private/public partnership style of unelected, unaccountable systems of NGOs and people like Integrity Initiative.The USA has way more of the same. Most western nations also play the game, with the 5 eyes nations being top of the heap. Then, as you say, you have the nation's who suffer at the hands of these groups using countermeasures. Sometimes I wonder how many accounts on the internet are real - take out all the bots, and the government propaganda merchants, and the foreign intelligence agencies, and it is entirely possible that there is no real discourse on the internet at all. It's all just propagandists trying to trick each other.

Here's how the British government spends taxpayer money abroad: REVEALED: The British government’s covert propaganda campaign in Syria

What's to stop foreign governments doing the same in the UK? Or the USA, for that matter...

5 blokes in a shed? Is Matt Hancock in charge

 

[D_W]

Yup, this is very true. There's no way that nations don't interfere with elections when it's in their interests. I certainly don't think the UK is innocent of doing it as much as the Russians and Chinese are.

Wikipedia has a nice selection of summaries, but there's not much mention of the UK (except that we meddled in brexit and another recent election). I think if you want to have a place to put your own election meddling, you'll have to make your own English version of Wikipedia!!

I remember Obama publicly saying that we would influence the russian elections or something along those lines (more softly worded) when we thought medvedev had a better chance than more recent elections, and putin blew his stack over it.

The sentiment at the time in the news was that it's kind of an acceptable thing because Putin is more or less an evil dictator with a rigged system in Russia. Doesn't even show up on wikipedia as rising to meddling (thanks to priorities in google, I can't find it), but that occurred to me when people were supposedly surprised that the Russians would buy ads on facebook that were untrue, or deceptive to meddle in the elections. I thought at the time (in 2016), why wouldn't Russia do that when we were publicly saying it'd be in everyone's best interest to have putin voted out?

 

[Jake]

This is a serious statement from a dry and cautious bipartisan committee

 

[Jake]

I could carry on for a long time ad nauseum.

report_volume5.pdf (senate.gov)

 

[NormanB]

While the Brits at least were genuinely shocked to see the antics surrounding the storming of Congress, I was more surprised that there were only 4 deaths. Regrettable that there were any deaths at all of course but in a country renowned for an armed whacko on almost every street corner I would have expected Congress to look like the remnants of Custer’s last stand the next morning.

I read an interesting statistic the other day - (yes I know 69.32% of statistics are just made up) During the panic buying spree in the first wave of COVID shut downs - In the USA Firearms and ammunition sales rose by something in the order of 700% while the UK ran out of toilet rolls and saw a 400% increase in the sale of croquet mallets.

 

[Droogs]

yeah but the previous year 'arrods 'as only sold 3 mallets init

 

[kwigly]

I'm looking at the US events from afar, as a foreigner, but it seems to me that there will be continued protests and escalating trouble unless there is a detailed and transparent investigation of the claims of election fraud, especially regarding possible electronic vote switching in the swing states. There seems to be more evidence of manipulation than was ever presented in the previous election with "Russian Interference" . There are tales of strange happenings; of inexplicable simultaneous halting of vote counting in all 5 swing states with subsequent vote tabulation changing the lead from Trump to Biden; The only states where Biden got more votes than Obama ever got were in those same swing states; analysis of reported vote totals in real time show time periods of negative candidate vote totals in some time segments, and/or unlikely district results where 90% of votes go to Biden; signed affadavits admitting that vote counting software was tampered with; etc
When the people asking questions are just labeled as delusional and have their facebook/twitter/www accounts blocked/banned without addressing the possibility of some grain of truth in their concerns, and the courts refuse to hear any arguments, it increases the appearance of a whitewash or coverup of election fraud. So I can totally understand why a section of US society thinks its their patriotic duty to protest against this apparent (to them) violation of a free and fair democratic vote.
If it is claimed that the voting machine results and tabulations have been changed using computer algorithms, and no rigorous and transparent check is is made to disprove that this has happened or is possible, then the whole concept of a democratic vote is in question.
Thankfully they still use paper votes where I am, and these can be re-counted if there's questions, so that people who listen to too many conspiracy theories can have their worries calmed.

 

[Blackswanwood]

It’s pretty amazing imho a country such as the US has not found a way to vote and subsequently count them so as to avoid all of this hullabaloo.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

I'm glad to see that the fact checkers turned up to put everyone straight on what the narrative should be. @RobinBHM are you suggesting 77 Brigade doesn't exist, or doesn't wage internet war? Which is it? Am I a tinfoil - hat wearing naive silly person for believing in something that doesn't even exist?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/77th_Brigade_(United_Kingdom)
They even have their own website, ffs! "77th Brigade - Influence and Outreach"
https://www.army.mod.uk/who-we-are/...gades/6th-united-kingdom-division/77-brigade/

 

[Jacob]

I'm looking at the US events from afar, as a foreigner, but it seems to me that there will be continued protests and escalating trouble unless there is a detailed and transparent investigation of the claims of election fraud, especially regarding possible electronic vote switching in the swing states. There seems to be more evidence of manipulation than was ever presented in the previous election with "Russian Interference" . There are tales of strange happenings; of inexplicable simultaneous halting of vote counting in all 5 swing states with subsequent vote tabulation changing the lead from Trump to Biden; The only states where Biden got more votes than Obama ever got were in those same swing states; analysis of reported vote totals in real time show time periods of negative candidate vote totals in some time segments, and/or unlikely district results where 90% of votes go to Biden; signed affadavits admitting that vote counting software was tampered with; etc
When the people asking questions are just labeled as delusional and have their facebook/twitter/www accounts blocked/banned without addressing the possibility of some grain of truth in their concerns, and the courts refuse to hear any arguments, it increases the appearance of a whitewash or coverup of election fraud. So I can totally understand why a section of US society thinks its their patriotic duty to protest against this apparent (to them) violation of a free and fair democratic vote.
If it is claimed that the voting machine results and tabulations have been changed using computer algorithms, and no rigorous and transparent check is is made to disprove that this has happened or is possible, then the whole concept of a democratic vote is in question.
Thankfully they still use paper votes where I am, and these can be re-counted if there's questions, so that people who listen to too many conspiracy theories can have their worries calmed.

There has been investigation of the complaints, including recounts. The Trump side have brought forward no evidence and non has been found, beyond marginal error. Trump himself was recorded on the phone trying to get someone to fix the vote. There have been investigations all over the place involving law processes and thousands of man hours.

 

[gregmcateer]

Interesting facts and views shared here. I love that we can all discuss, diverge, agree, disagree...
Also interesting that all of us, (here and elsewhere), use sources as per our view. For example, there have been
big fans of the BBC and other UK channels, (and to less extent US channels, obvs as we are predominantly in UK),
Non committal watchers of the BBC and
Huge anti, "defund the BBC'.
I find it interesting that the last group tend to quote reliable internet sources, yet disregard unreliable BBC reporters, who put their names and faces to everything and are obliged to at least follow journalistic scrutiny.
I genuinely don't think UK tv channels are politically affiliated, but it may seem so when they are scrutinising the govt of the day. We just happen to have a long time with a Conservative govt. I seem to remember the Left complaining of the right wing BBC during the Blair govt days.
Seems to indicate they are annoying everyone, depending on their views - probably getting the balance ?

 

[billw]

Seems to indicate they are annoying everyone, depending on their views - probably getting the balance ?

My mum's biggest gripe with the BBC news is that they interview people who are either BAME, "common" or "stupid". She thinks only well educated white people should be consulted for an opinion. So yes, the BBC can't possible please everyone.

That's not to say they don't hold bias - Laura Kuenssberg seems to have a gripe with the government because her questioning sometimes goes beyond being firm into the realms of aggressive, although in all fairness that's just how I read her manner, maybe others won't see it that way (objectively I mean, not people who sit there thinking "yeah stuff it to those Tory bar stewards Laura").

However bias isn't of the BBC itself, it's held by the individual presenters.

 

[Jacob]

Channel 4 news my favourite, they seem to ask the right questions.
https://www.google.com/search?q=cha...lxYUKHfEoACsQ_h16BAg0EAE#imgrc=bKVFfWTNwBqMDM

 

[MIGNAL]

There has been investigation of the complaints, including recounts. The Trump side have brought forward no evidence and non has been found, beyond marginal error. Trump himself was recorded on the phone trying to get someone to fix the vote. There have been investigations all over the place involving law processes and thousands of man hours.

They did find voter fraud. It was a republican voter in his 70's who tried to vote as his dead mother! Silly old tw*t.
There's voter fraud in every election. Happens here all the time. Happens everywhere. It's a very, very, very tiny percentage of the result. It ain't gonna change any result. . . . unless it happens to be Russia or Belarus or some other tinpot country. Trump wanted to be just like them.

 

[billw]

They did find voter fraud. It was a republican voter in his 70's who tried to vote as his dead mother! Silly old tw*t.
There's voter fraud in every election. Happens here all the time. Happens everywhere. It's a very, very, very tiny percentage of the result. It ain't gonna change any result. . . . unless it happens to be Russia or Belarus or some other tinpot country. Trump wanted to be just like them.

His tendencies to pander to autocrats and say how wonderful it was that their media always supported them (yes... I wonder why they do that lol) etc et clearly showed the direction he wanted to go in.

Interestingly, if the GOP does become more radicalised, then it is going to simply decrease its chances of ever getting back into power again. They've always loved voter suppression and gerrymandering as ways of maintaining minority power but it's going to get a lot more difficult - they've only won the majority public vote once in 8 elections already?

If the Democrats make DC a full state, then that's another two almost guaranteed blue seats in Congress.

The danger will be that an increasingly desperate minority will become even more radicalised and stressed. The conspiracy theories will run riot (great piece in National Geographic today about the reasons why people cling to these theories - well worth a few minutes of your time) and that's got the potential to trigger a full break down in society.

I note that Twitter finally banned Trump forever. Problem is that the conservatives will now feel even more censored and aggrieved with a resultant proliferation of right-wing-only sites, becoming dangerous echo chambers. Equally, MSM will become increasingly liberal making them feel as if there's no threat any more.

Anyway, I'm off to enjoy some screwing. With a screwdriver by the way, before you ask.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

There was some vote fraud, and (I think) fifteen court cases were prepared. The courts, including the Supreme Court, declined to hear fourteen of them, so whatever evidence there may have been wasn't legally tested.

That may be either the Courts taking a pragmatic decision not to become embroiled in politics (or deciding that it might be a good idea not to lift lids from cans of worms), or abrogating their constitutional duty, depending on your point of view.

Concern was expressed from a number of quarters long before the election that some voting arrangements might be vulnerable to attempts at fraud, but nothing was done to tighten up procedures. If you know systems might be faulty, don't be surprised if faults happen. (We know from UK experience that postal voting can have it's problems, for example, and in the UK measures have been taken to try to reduce or eliminate fraudulent postal voting.)

The whole thing is moot, now, anyway. Biden will be president from 20th January, whatever the perceived rights and wrongs. We'll all just have to wait and see how that pans out over the next four years.