Invasion of US Capitol building

[billw]

The irony is that in the case of the USA, apart from the loony fringes, the two parties are BOTH to the right of centre compared with European democracies - it's just a matter of degree. You might say the same for the vast majority of Americans. I say this as someone who worked for a very large US multinational, and visited the US on many occasions. The idea that the millionaire Bernie Sanders is a socialist when compared to, say, Joseph Stalin, is laughable.

Completely agree, their concept of left/right very different to ours. Also a lot of Americans think there's no difference between socialism and communism because they're both "left wing".

 

[billw]

USA problems might be over when they finally get a black/latino/native american majority in government.

Which will still be opposed by a Republican party filled with old white men defending the second amendment,

 

[TheUnicorn]

The difference between BLM movements and the Trump faction is that the former are fighting for civil rights and democracy but the latter against. They are not equivalent and opposite.

Have to respectfully disagree with you. Whilst personally I couldn't agree with them in a million years, if you are one of the 47% of republicans (according to a you.gov poll today) that believes the steal is real, then you ARE fighting for civil rights and democracy. IF I truly believed, and had been told again and again, that one political party or the other was attempting, by falsifying results, to essentially take over my country, I'd conceivably feel that I would be not only justified, but compelled to stop them in whatever way I could.

I'm not saying that individuals are not responsable for their actions, just that those actions are based on percieved truth, as a basis for personal morality.

 

[selectortone]

The idea that Stalin was a socialist is also laughable.
Sanders sounds like a middle of the road democratic socialist in the European manner. Not too dogmatic/ideological/radical but humanitarian and pragmatic.
USA problems might be over when they finally get a black/latino/native american majority in government.

My point was that Americans often, in their somewhat skewed world view, DO compare Mr Sanders with Stalin.

p.s. I'm conscious that there is a least one American reading this and no offence is intended.

 

[billw]

Have to respectfully disagree with you. Whilst personally I couldn't agree with them in a million years, if you are one of the 47% of republicans (according to a you.gov poll today) that believes the steal is real, then you ARE fighting for civil rights and democracy. IF I truly believed, and had been told again and again, that one political party or the other was attempting, by falsifying results, to essentially take over my country, I'd conceivably feel that I would be not only justified, but compelled to stop them in whatever way I could.

I'm not saying that individuals are not responsable for their actions, just that those actions are based on percieved truth, as a basis for personal morality.

This is true, but they believe it's real purely through repetition of lies. There;'s been no evidence, just repeatedly debunked conspiracy theories, but these people are so far down the rabbit hole that they take any repudiation of their theories as further proof that there's a cover up. The right-wing media won't cave in, so you're left with an absolutely ireconcilable difference.

America doesn't like losers, as many of my American friends tell me. The lengths they'll go to to avoid being labelled as such is becoming worryingly clear.

 

[selectortone]

Completely agree, their concept of left/right very different to ours. Also a lot of Americans think there's no difference between socialism and communism because they're both "left wing".

Exactly

 

[Jacob]

Have to respectfully disagree with you. Whilst personally I couldn't agree with them in a million years, if you are one of the 47% of republicans (according to a you.gov poll today) that believes the steal is real, then you ARE fighting for civil rights and democracy. IF I truly believed, and had been told again and again, that one political party or the other was attempting, by falsifying results, to essentially take over my country, I'd conceivably feel that I would be not only justified, but compelled to stop them in whatever way I could.

I'm not saying that individuals are not responsable for their actions, just that those actions are based on percieved truth, as a basis for personal morality.

Hmm. A tangled web!
I'd say these actions are based on a quasi religious faith in their leadership and/or ideology i.e. faith in somebody else's perception of the truth.

 

[TheUnicorn]

Hmm. A tangled web!
I'd say these actions are based on a quasi religious faith in their leadership and/or ideology i.e. faith in somebody else's perception of the truth.

yeah, Americans of both parties do seem to be worship the flag in a way that is inconceivable here

 

[clogs]

wot and nobody has mentioned Guy Fawkes......those were the days......hahaha...

I just luv this forum.....

 

[Jacob]

wot and nobody has mentioned Guy Fawkes......those were the days......hahaha...

I just luv this forum.....

Or Hitler! Too soon perhaps.

 

[Fitzroy]

Have to respectfully disagree with you. Whilst personally I couldn't agree with them in a million years, if you are one of the 47% of republicans (according to a you.gov poll today) that believes the steal is real, then you ARE fighting for civil rights and democracy. IF I truly believed, and had been told again and again, that one political party or the other was attempting, by falsifying results, to essentially take over my country, I'd conceivably feel that I would be not only justified, but compelled to stop them in whatever way I could.

I'm not saying that individuals are not responsable for their actions, just that those actions are based on percieved truth, as a basis for personal morality.

I agree. However I'm reminded of a scene from Men In Black. Trump tells lies to manipulate the people, if he believes these lies he is insane, if he tells them knowingly he is criminal and implicit in the death of the protestor.

Edwards : Why the big secret? People are smart. They can handle it.

Kay : A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.

 

[Jacob]

...... People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.

and when they get together it's called "a mob"

 

[Jacob]

yeah, Americans of both parties do seem to be worship the flag in a way that is inconceivable here

Gets close on Poppy Day!

 

[Trainee neophyte]

yeah, Americans of both parties do seem to be worship the flag in a way that is inconceivable here

Substitute NHS for flag. Same difference.

 

[Jacob]

Substitute NHS for flag. Same difference.

An exceptionally silly remark!
Had a cataract op on Monday courtesy of the NHS. Americans please note this was entirely free of charge including several cups of tea and some digestive biscuits! They would have picked me up and taken me back home if needed, also free.
I can't see any connection at all with flag worship. Would waving the St George flag have helped me see? Do American flag wavers get free medical care, or any benefit at all for that matter?
Incidentally, having mentioned it I must say the result was amazing and I can now see better than I have for the last 50 years. Even the colours are better. Sight with the other eye has a yellowish tinge - possibly nicotine stains from the bad old days.
Whom should I thank - St George or Aneurin Bevan?

 

[artie]

An exceptionally silly remark!
Had a cataract op on Monday courtesy of the NHS. Americans please note this was entirely free of charge

When will people stop this bollocks.
It was not free.

 

[Jacob]

When will people stop this pineapples.
It was not free.

Oh yes it was, I didn't pay a penny.

 

[billw]

yeah, Americans of both parties do seem to be worship the flag in a way that is inconceivable here

I do find it interesting that Americans pledge allegiance to the flag, yet never question why, and if you dare try then you're not patriotic.

 

[billw]

When will people stop this pineapples.
It was not free.

Free at point of service is what we mean by free. Sure, you indirectly pay but the point is that you don't pay for what treatment you get. I've probably net contributed to the NHS in my life since I've never spent a day in hospital and rarely go to the doctor except for routine blood tests etc. However whatever I DO get is, in my mind, free.

 

[JohnPW]

I do find it interesting that Americans pledge allegiance to the flag, yet never question why, and if you dare try then you're not patriotic.

They're forced to from a young age. I believe every school has a ceremony everyday pledging allegiance to the flag. The flag is sacred symbol in the US.

I'm not American so correct me if I'm wrong.