Internal doors - "solid" oak and other queries

[Matt@Nearfield]

oddly people don't usually space 4 hinges evenly. 2 close together at the top. the other 2 evenly spaced. I've no idea why. I space 6 from the top and 9 from the bottom for normal hinges. I've no idea why either

Because you're looking fown on the bottom Hinge but straight at the top hinge. If you set the bottom hing a similar 6in up your angle of sight makes it look about 3in up. So more it to 9in up and it looks nearer the 6in of the top.

 

[johnnyb]

I've often thought it was so I didn't have to bend so far!

 

[Matt@Nearfield]

I've often thought it was so I didn't have to bend so far!

6in up would be a b..gger for the chisel work certainly..

 

[baldkev]

That is what I have read, however the suppliers of the high quality hinges I used suggested the spacing I have used and though these doors are solid teak, so not exactly lightweight, the hinge specifications would have allowed for only three I thought that 4 looked better, were just as easy/difficult to fit and I prefer the look of more even spacing.

It looks good
Are they through tenons on the rails? Setting the hinges over them wont affect structural integrity but a router would be easier than setting them with a chisel

 

[sometimewoodworker]

It looks good

Thanks.

Are they through tenons on the rails?

I’m not exactly sure of your meaning, the tenons are not visible.

Setting the hinges over them wont affect structural integrity but a router would be easier than setting them with a chisel

I did virtually all the setting with routers though I did square off with hand tools. I did get a few of the lines a bit off but the inset’s are exact, though these are workshop doors and the hinges are virtually never seen I’m not concerned.

 

[schnapps95]

12 pairs of 3 inch baldwins for £85 that's £7 a pair. cheaper than the new tat and these never wear.

By saying Baldwins i presume you mean cast butts they seem expensive we've just had a box of 10prs of 3" delivered at £3.00 a pair plus VAT. I know i am past my sell buy date but if you asked most reps and ironmongers for a pair of Baldwins they would'nt know what you were asking for

 

[johnnyb]

baldwin were the premier manufacturer of cast hinges







https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...MQFnoECAgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1HNCt2rhOaXY20PRvceSdx






I thought it was pretty good value as I can imagine these would come from China/ India. £3.60 for foreign tat versus £7 for vintage quality.

 

[Mjward]

Had a walk around with the tape measure yday and unsurprisingly/unfortunately my door openings don't seem to play nice with off the shelf doors. Most are roughly 760 x 2012. Given 762x1981 and 813x2032 seem to be the standard dimensions, the former would leave too much of a gap and the latter would require too much to be removed (even the "solid" oak I've found seems to max out at 15mm a side of adjustment).

Separately I've priced up the various hinge/mortising jigs/door holders and so forth and coming to the conclusion that for my circumstances, DIY may end up uneconomical.

I got a FB recommendation coming over tomorrow but if anyone is West Yorkshire based I'd be keen to bring in a pro for this work. Starting to become indifferent between solid oak and veneer (given combo of twisting potential and price). As an aside, I've got the original doors just I had sand blasted a year ago but have been stored on vertically against a wall so would imagine they may not be straight anymore. The plan was to refit them but we weren't overly happy with how they looked post sand blasting plus they had been butchered over the years due to changes in hinges/latches so we thought best to start afresh but maybe not now.

 

[Doug71]

Had a walk around with the tape measure yday and unsurprisingly/unfortunately my door openings don't seem to play nice with off the shelf doors. Most are roughly 760 x 2012. Given 762x1981 and 813x2032 seem to be the standard dimensions, the former would leave too much of a gap and the latter would require too much to be removed (even the "solid" oak I've found seems to max out at 15mm a side of adjustment).

Separately I've priced up the various hinge/mortising jigs/door holders and so forth and coming to the conclusion that for my circumstances, DIY may end up uneconomical.

I got a FB recommendation coming over tomorrow but if anyone is West Yorkshire based I'd be keen to bring in a pro for this work. Starting to become indifferent between solid oak and veneer (given combo of twisting potential and price). As an aside, I've got the original doors just I had sand blasted a year ago but have been stored on vertically against a wall so would imagine they may not be straight anymore. The plan was to refit them but we weren't overly happy with how they looked post sand blasting plus they had been butchered over the years due to changes in hinges/latches so we thought best to start afresh but maybe not now.

Have you got all the architraves around the casings yet, could you put some packings under the casing heads and drop the architraves down to make the gap under the doors smaller?

You don't need any jigs etc for hanging a few doors, a router is handy but you can do it with just chisels and a drill. I find the magic door gripper really handy for holding them but managed without it for years.

How West Yorkshire are you, I'm East Yorkshire so probably a bit far or I would have a look.

 

[baldkev]

Had a walk around with the tape measure yday and unsurprisingly/unfortunately my door openings don't seem to play nice with off the shelf doors. Most are roughly 760 x 2012. Given 762x1981 and 813x2032 seem to be the standard dimensions, the former would leave too much of a gap and the latter would require too much to be removed (even the "solid" oak I've found seems to max out at 15mm a side of adjustment).

Separately I've priced up the various hinge/mortising jigs/door holders and so forth and coming to the conclusion that for my circumstances, DIY may end up uneconomical.

In terms of jigs, you dont have to spend out.... this was made with an offcut of mdf ( one side was a manufactured edge ) and a couple of bits of pine to locate it for clamping to the doors / linings.
I put a couple of screw holes where the stops are going to cover them. 3mm packer on top to space down for the closing gap and when you put it on the door, you line the mdf up with the door top.
I drill out latches and cut the perimeter of the plates with a chisel and use a palm router to remove the majority of the wood, just finish the edges with a chisel where necessary

I dont do that many doors per year, so never bought a jig

Edit to add: i use a top mounted bearing bit, so you cut the hinge ( leaf ) sizes exactly where you want them to finished size. If you are switched on, you'll use the 18mm mdf to quickly place your chisel against to knock out the corners fast and accurately before removing the jig

 

[gregmcateer]

Howden do different sizes of their doors - there should be enough variety to cover most apertures

 

[Mjward]

Have you got all the architraves around the casings yet, could you put some packings under the casing heads and drop the architraves down to make the gap under the doors smaller?

You don't need any jigs etc for hanging a few doors, a router is handy but you can do it with just chisels and a drill. I find the magic door gripper really handy for holding them but managed without it for years.

How West Yorkshire are you, I'm East Yorkshire so probably a bit far or I would have a look.

Unfortunately I'm so west I'm close to Lancashire! Of the 5 doors I am ready to have fitted now, only 1 has architrave both sides and 1 on one side. Often the simplest solutions are the best and Doug I think your idea there about packing under the casing heads is a great one. What sort of gaps are you leaving between doors and finished floors, 10mm type thing?

Re jigs, the main one I had an eye on was a souber/mortiser just given the depth of bathroom/heavy duty latches. Was thinking that roughly 130 pounds equates to 10 a door once I've done every door in the house (and probably even less if I sell after). It's the holding the door in place jigs (either bought or homemade) that are a must have for me, tried a door last year with just one of those metal footplate things and was a shocker.

In terms of jigs, you dont have to spend out.... this was made with an offcut of mdf ( one side was a manufactured edge ) and a couple of bits of pine to locate it for clamping to the doors / linings.
I put a couple of screw holes where the stops are going to cover them. 3mm packer on top to space down for the closing gap and when you put it on the door, you line the mdf up with the door top.
I drill out latches and cut the perimeter of the plates with a chisel and use a palm router to remove the majority of the wood, just finish the edges with a chisel where necessary

I dont do that many doors per year, so never bought a jig

Edit to add: i use a top mounted bearing bit, so you cut the hinge ( leaf ) sizes exactly where you want them to finished size. If you are switched on, you'll use the 18mm mdf to quickly place your chisel against to knock out the corners fast and accurately before removing the jig

Thanks for this, exactly where I can save a chunk as those hinge jigs aren't cheap and by and large seems geared towards those needing to be quick, I just need accurate which is what your jig provides.

Howden do different sizes of their doors - there should be enough variety to cover most apertures

Taking the below as an example, under product measurement it has a door lipping thickness of 10mm yet under installation, door edging maximum trim is 5mm. I'm probably looking at it from the wrong angle but would have thought if you've got 10mm on each side then that would allow double ie 20mm of maximum trim. What am I reading wrong there?

https://www.howdens.com/joinery/doors/howdens-rockingham-oak-4-panel-door-obj-sku-family-die4060

Thanks all for your help, certainly helps having people to talk to on this stuff rather than just rely on what google results throw up!

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Taking the below as an example, under product measurement it has a door lipping thickness of 10mm yet under installation, door edging maximum trim is 5mm. I'm probably looking at it from the wrong angle but would have thought if you've got 10mm on each side then that would allow double ie 20mm of maximum trim. What am I reading wrong there?

The lipping thickness is indeed 10mm on each side, the total lipping is indeed 20mm, the trim available on each side is 4mm, so the total allowed is 8mm.

If the door is to be reduced in size, an equal amount of timber should be cut down from either side/top or bottom (please note that this must never exceed 8mm in total, 4mm each side).

You have clearly forgotten that there is a veneer over a Particleboard board core so if you were to trim more than 5mm off a side (say 9mm) you are left with a Particleboard core with a 1mm veneer covering the edge so a single knock to the edge and your Particleboard core is exposed and even if you don’t ding the edge just easing the edges will expose the core. Don’t forget that the surface veneer is 0.6mm .

 

[Mjward]

The lipping thickness is indeed 10mm on each side, the total lipping is indeed 20mm, the trim available on each side is 4mm, so the total allowed is 8mm.

You have clearly forgotten that there is a veneer over a Particleboard board core so if you were to trim more than 5mm off a side (say 9mm) you are left with a Particleboard core with a 1mm veneer covering the edge so a single knock to the edge and your Particleboard core is exposed and even if you don’t ding the edge just easing the edges will expose the core. Don’t forget that the surface veneer is 0.6mm .

Think I get it, basically there is 10mm available but would be silly to trim close to that given the core so the 5mm is the recommendation for max trim to basically allow it to take a knock.

 

[Mjward]

Thought I'd have a check of the old doors I took off. They are definitely solid wood but wondering if they are old pine (given the knots) as opposed to anything fancier. Also noticed the beading appears to have been added at a later date and not the best.

Given I'm changing hinge opening and different latches, not to mention the general condition if these I think I'll stick to the plan of buying new.

 

[baldkev]

Yes pine, but i think mouldings would have been added at the time of manufacture.

For door holding jigs, you only need a metre or 2 of 4x2.... I'll post a pik of my setup on Thursday ( im away from site at the mo )
Dead easy to knock up and you just want 4 or 5 wedges kicking around to allow you to get the height correct when hanging. You can easily get away with a wedge under the hinge side and another under the latch side to set the height of the door hinges against the lining.
I use a wedge to steady the door when im drill out the latch, placed end on ( ie knocked in on latch edge of door, aiming towards hinge edge )

 

[baldkev]

Something like this, but mine is simpler and uses a wedge between door and upright to take up the slack

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Think I get it, basically there is 10mm available but would be silly to trim close to that given the core so the 5mm is the recommendation for max trim to basically allow it to take a knock.

Partly correct, however there is not 10mm available, but 4mm if you read the available instructions, I posted an extract from them above. This is partly because there must be enough material available to recess the hinges and lock hardware and partly to allow for knocks. NB that is per edge so 8mm total.

 

[Mjward]

Something like this, but mine is simpler and uses a wedge between door and upright to take up the slack

I like that a lot, thank you!

Partly correct, however there is not 10mm available, but 4mm if you read the available instructions, I posted an extract from them above. This is partly because there must be enough material available to recess the hinges and lock hardware and partly to allow for knocks. NB that is per edge so 8mm total.

Ah ok, right that makes sense. What sort of gap are you leaving around the door - frame perimeter, something 1-2mm type thing?

 

[ChrisWiduWood]

oddly people don't usually space 4 hinges evenly. 2 close together at the top. the other 2 evenly spaced. I've no idea why. I space 6 from the top and 9 from the bottom for normal hinges. I've no idea why either

On a traditional mortice and tenoned jointed door the top and bottom rail are 6 and 9" (or there abouts) that way when you start at 6 or 9" you do not chop into the tenon or wedges when fitting the hinges.
On extremely heavy door's lets say a traditional 50mm solid oak door we fit an extra hinge closer to the 6" hinge at the top as the door falls away from the frame there and compress's in at the bottom hinge/frame, ie a failed door will have a big gap hinge side at the top and no gap hinge side at the bottom.