How not to operate a miter saw

[TRITON]

You're using it wrong. Seriously! Get some guidance now. Don't cut on a pull stroke. You're supposed to pull the saw all the way towards you, place the piece to be cut where you want it, start the saw and cut with a push stroke.

Pete

Sorry Pete, you're completely wrong, and I think trying to compare a cross cut miter saw with a radial arm saw.

I've seen the cross cut method of bringing the saw right to the front and cutting backwards towards the fence and in my mind, trained at college to degree standard incidentally(College of Building and Printing-Glasgow- All my lecturers were time served production joiners,cabinetmakers and such(The college has trained every joiner/cabinetmaker and furniture maker in Glasgow since at least the 1960's)
It is an incorrect and unsafe way to do it imho. God alone knows how this method came about, but i say its incorrect.

A flat board sitting on the table, you pull the saw out and contact the edge of the board and the forces of the blade want to pick the board up off the table. The direction of the blade is a lifting motion when you do it that way, rather than from fence out, where the 'up cut' back of the blade is moving through the kerf with no resistance. Also the saw blade is pushing the workpiece against the fence.

 

[TRITON]

if it bites the timber you are pushed out of the way not knocked out or eaten by the saw.

Even with neg rake, when you set the saw on miter(angled over to 45deg it has a horrible habit of biting and roaring forward scaring the bejesus out of you as you lose the neg rake effect as the blade is canted over. Even straight locked arm it will still jump out at least half the board and usually bind and stall.No chance at all of stopping that forward motion, even well prepared for it it still does what it wants and easily negates your arm strength.
Last workshop we'd a wadkin as above for the straight and a dewalt(the orange and black livery) angled at 45 deg. and NOBODY used it because it grabbed and raced out . Even taking 1/2 a kerf width it still did it.
If I were back there today I'd take off that neg rake blade and have it reground alternative top bevel angle. Just to make 1 in 3 teeth less capable of grabbing.

 

[Peter Sefton]

@TRITON I am trying to show the difference between a radial arm saw and a mitre saw as a lot of people will not understand the difference.

Just for clarity are you saying the Bosch video is the correct or dangerous way of using a mitre saw?

 

[TRITON]

Hi Peter.

I cant really argue against a Bosch pro vid, but its just the understanding of how a blade moves and cuts that makes me think back to front has more forces acting on it than front to back.

After posting and reading others thoughts I was wondering on why this back to front method originated, and I reckon its possible from scribing it in multiple passes, rather than the RAS that takes the full bite.

I have a dewalt slide miter saw, and admittedly cutting large,wide or thick boards do work in both back to front and front to back, but I can see the dangers of back to front. Sorry not really clarifying this am I

Yeah, I think its just really a scribing cut on multiple passes thats perhaps the proper way*, buit its not anything I was trained in as we had these big RAS's, and in industry its the big RAS you'll mostly be using.

*Thinking on it, scribing F2B theres more chance it will at some point in the middle of the board or whatever cutting right through, if you see what I mean. I think though both F2B or B2F are correct, only I see B2F with more forces acting on it to try to lift the board, so well clamped it should be and i know few do.

Personally I'd try to stick, for myself and my own mind work F2b.

Really needs HSE clarification on this

 

[Peter Sefton]

This is a subject that is easy to get the terminology wrong, as the names of the different types saws get swapped or both commonly called cross cut saws. Also the technicheque of scoring the top of the board is useful on veneered or laminated products on the "sliding mitre saw" but these materials do not have the grab factor that is found in twisted, warped or large solid timbers. Fighting those tricky solid timbers with an 8HP Wadkin is no fun at all and can be a scary as it gets.

I would say these two videos are a good training examples of the way to use the two different saws correctly.

Radial arm saw.


Mitre saw.


The HSE do have their data sheet and a video but this only deals with Radial arm saws.
www.hse.gov.uk/woodworking/crosscut.htm

I spend around three hours teaching how to use these two saw types and that's only covering the basics.

 

[andy hamilton]

I'm not going to argue the point with anyone about this. Using a radial arm saw on a pull cut is dangerous. I have seen the after effects of too many accidents involving a "human/machine interface" over many years to be complacent about this stuff. The machine always wins. Just because some ill-informed "teacher" with little to no practical experience or 1001 morons with a youtube account say something is OK, does not make it OK. Your opening phrase stated " I admit that sounds safer ". Stick with that and you'll be fine.

Pete

That's fine Bale, but I've been using potentially dangerous woodworking machines safely for over 3 decades, spindle moulders as well as radial arm saws. I've never been complacent. I go through a rigid check system before I even switch on. The machine only wins if users ignore the basic procedures or try to cut corners. I'll stick with what I was taught and with my experience

 

[TRITON]

Nice safety vid on everyones Fav Stumpy Nubs - Check out what happens F2B @4:30.

 

[Peter Sefton]

Did you notice the user lifted the saw up just before the grab, that's an uncontrolled cut. These saws are powerful and dangerous as seen by the original post.

 

[ivan]

As a regular radial arm saw user, I question the Warwick college RAS demo. The stuff to the right of the blade was "trapped" between the blade and the stop, whilst the "loose" part to the left of the blade was held against the fence. I believe the correct method for a RH operator, is to have the stop to the left of the blade, and the stuff held by the left hand against both fence and stop, whilst the RH pulls out the saw with a stiff arm. The waste piece to the right of the blade is thus free to move, small items often moving from the draught of the rotating blade.
A push cut with a RAS is dangerous as the blade tends to lift the work. Unlike the mitre saw, there is no downward pressure possible to couteract this.

 

[Yojevol]

@Bale "Jamie Ward" in the YouTube video is a very experienced wood machinist and good lecturer, his demo is good practice. He is demonstrating a cross cut/radial arm saw this is different to a mitre saw. Crosscut/radial saws have to be used pulling (under control) across the timber as demonstrated. The only thing I would add to his video is keep your hands out of the danger zone (clearly marked) and for larger pieces of timber keep both hands on the saw and arms straight, if it bites the timber you are pushed out of the way not knocked out or eaten by the saw.
Bale I think you are referring to a mitre saw (as shown in my video) for wide pieces bring the saw over the top of the timber and cut on the push stroke, or lock the saw off and cut on the down stroke.

These machines look very similar but are used in opposite ways, but both should use negative hook blades.

Yes Peter I remember the big heavy Wadkin BRA we had at GlosCat and the teaching was much as shown in the video. All very safe it would seem, but when I installed my much lighter DW style RAS in my own workshop, it was a different matter. On at least one occasion the blade attempted to roll over the workpiece knocking the carriage completely out of adjustment. Quite scary, but no harm done, not to me anyway. I quickly realised that the safer way to operate was to cut with a pushing stroke rather than pulling. I took this up with the tutors who thought I was bonkers, but I could see the logic of my case and continued to use it 'safely' for the next 15 years. The only downside is that the cutable width was much reduced, but it did for 90% of my requirements.
A couple of years ago I got rid of the RAS because it was taking up too much space. I replaced it with a mitre saw and, lo and behold, it is designed for a push action.
Well, there you go!
Brian

 

[Doug71]

As a regular radial arm saw user, I question the Warwick college RAS demo. The stuff to the right of the blade was "trapped" between the blade and the stop, whilst the "loose" part to the left of the blade was held against the fence. I believe the correct method for a RH operator, is to have the stop to the left of the blade, and the stuff held by the left hand against both fence and stop, whilst the RH pulls out the saw with a stiff arm. The waste piece to the right of the blade is thus free to move, small items often moving from the draught of the rotating blade.
A push cut with a RAS is dangerous as the blade tends to lift the work. Unlike the mitre saw, there is no downward pressure possible to couteract this.

What Ivan describes is how I work, stop to the left and hold the keeper piece down with the left hand, the offcut to the right is then free to do what it wants. You don't want both pieces clamped in place as it can trap the blade.

Regards mitre saws, not sure if they are all the same but I know the dust extraction on my Kapex is much better when I cut with a push stroke, it fires the dust straight into the dust chute. If you use it like a chop saw or cut on the pull stroke some of the dust misses the chute.

 

[TRITON]

So I take it we're all agreed that big fookin cross cut saws are dangerous and having a clear mind,recognizing the dangers when using them is paramount.

Glad we sorted that one

Tomorrow's lesson is how not to stuff a finger into your bandsaw blade....

 

[Bale]

Tomorrow's lesson is how not to stuff a finger into your bandsaw blade....

Don't get me started...

Pete

 

[Peter Sefton]

Yes Peter I remember the big heavy Wadkin BRA we had at GlosCat and the teaching was much as shown in the video. All very safe it would seem, but when I installed my much lighter DW style RAS in my own workshop, it was a different matter. On at least one occasion the blade attempted to roll over the workpiece knocking the carriage completely out of adjustment. Quite scary, but no harm done, not to me anyway. I quickly realised that the safer way to operate was to cut with a pushing stroke rather than pulling. I took this up with the tutors who thought I was bonkers, but I could see the logic of my case and continued to use it 'safely' for the next 15 years. The only downside is that the cutable width was much reduced, but it did for 90% of my requirements.
A couple of years ago I got rid of the RAS because it was taking up too much space. I replaced it with a mitre saw and, lo and behold, it is designed for a push action.
Well, there you go!
Brian

Hi Brian, oh yes the radial arm saw can bite and the lighter weight ones are the worst. I no longer have my Wadkin pull cut radial arm saw, I have replaced it with a Bosch and Festool push Mitre saws, which I feel are safer to use.
I do understand your reasoning but if anyone teaching used the push method on a radial arm saw they would be breaching the Acop (approved code of practice) and would be in deep water if an accident happened.
IMO the biggest issue would be re-positioning the timber behind the spinning blade as most RAS don't have any breaking and old ones are not required to under the regs but they do have to have weights or springs to make sure they return to the back position, these would pull the blade into the timber to be cut if not held forward by the operator whilst positioning the timber. This may method may be possible for a one off cut but in a production workshop this would lead to accidents.

This video between 5 and 8 minutes describes the issues, the HSE also have an Acop video but I don't think you can link to it.



One thing for sure is it's a dangerous machine and every piece of timber is different in size, weight and tension each cut should be assessed by the user for the safest method for them and their equipment.

 

[Benchwayze]

Never had to use a Radial Saw. Would never buy one, so it's academic to me. But I don't think anyone was arguing the point. Just putting forward an opinion.

John

 

[Danieljw]

I'm not going to argue the point with anyone about this. Using a radial arm saw on a pull cut is dangerous. I have seen the after effects of too many accidents involving a "human/machine interface" over many years to be complacent about this stuff. The machine always wins. Just because some ill-informed "teacher" with little to no practical experience or 1001 morons with a youtube account say something is OK, does not make it OK. Your opening phrase stated " I admit that sounds safer ". Stick with that and you'll be fine.

Pete

I couldnt agree more, I am 64 years and have used radial arm saws all my life, I have one in my workshop that I use all the time.
My table saw is almost redundant.
"To each their own" I served my apprenticeship from 15 years old on radial arm saws, they are the most amazingly versatile machines, they can as a preference be set up to push or pull, push is by far the safer method.
The problem is as said by bale, and I agree, too much wrong information on YouTube and not enough control over who buys or uses dangerous machines.

 

[billw]

Some of the images in the video about the DeWalt saw made me shiver.

 

[aebersold]

You guys have made me think about keeping my small 2hp wadkin RAS. Enjoyed reading your thoughts and decided to add a couple of my own. I understand where Bale is coming from, as generally we are taught to feed material into a machine against the blade direction which makes good sense. I tried it and it scared me so I always pull cut with arm locked as Peter S mentioned, especially with thicker material. My blade is negative rake so the climb cut force is less, as positive rake would exacerbate the climb and I think be quite dangerous. I liked the S. Nubs view in that he never moves his from 90 degrees as it’s a pita to reset, completely understand that. I have tried ripping and trenching with it a few years ago, but gave up on that as the mess everywhere and the cost of the counselling I needed afterwards was all too much. I think you’ve all perhaps sold me a sliding mitre saw, but what I would miss most is the ability to position the blade exactly on a knife mark and cut really accurately.

 

[akirk]

I think you’ve all perhaps sold me a sliding mitre saw, but what I would miss most is the ability to position the blade exactly on a knife mark and cut really accurately.

Not sure why a sliding mitre saw is not accurate enough? I have recently bought a Bosch sliding mitre saw - tweaked the laser and now it cuts exactly along the laser line...

 

[Skydivermel]

A rule I was taught was to always rehearse the cut on any piece of machinery before you make it.