How long did it take you ( or your students) to learn to cut gapless dovetails

[Jacob]

I'm not understanding why you would use dovetails on unseen work.

Because it's a very strong joint and very good value for the labour.
DTs weren't designed to be seen - there may be hundreds in a chest of drawers, most permanently out of sight, except for the drawer fronts when opened.

 

[johnnyb]

dovetails like through tenons on doors are a relic of animal glues. surely a double gallows arrangement would be far superior. yes even dovetailed if you like as long as it has a shoulder.

 

[Austin Branson]

dovetails like through tenons on doors are a relic of animal glues. surely a double gallows arrangement would be far superior. yes even dovetailed if you like as long as it has a shoulder.

Something new for me, johnnyb - could you tell me what a’double gallows’ is, please? Best wishes.

 

[johnnyb]

2 small " things" at 45 degrees across the 2 planks( at the end.) the alternative would be the wall plank thicker and a couple of bare faced through tenons in the top piece and through mortice in the thicker piece like a small cantilever.

 

[tibi]

Cut yourself some short pieces of board about a foot long and make corners (don’t try to turn them into a box just practice the dovetails. The critical part is sawing a straight line where you want it to be. Being able to saw exactly to one or the other side of a knife line will let you do dovetails right from the saw. Get that right and the chisel is only needed for clearing the waste at the bottom of the tails and pins. Very fast and very satisfying.

Thank you very much for your advice. This was exactly my plan as well. I will explain what I am going to do

1. I mark out 5 different types of lines
a) straight line on the face side, straight line on the end grain
b) straight line on the face side, right angled line on the end grain
c) straight line on the face side, left angled line on the end grain
d) right angled line on the face side, straight line on the end grain
e) left angled line on the face side, straight line on the end grain

I will use a dovetail template for the angles. I also mark the waste side on each cut and I alternate the waste side.

This gives me 10 unique combinations that I need to be able to cut precisely just next to the line. I create one row of such lines, that are 30 - 400 mm deep and after I cut them with the gents saw ( I do not have a pistol grip dovetail saw), then I cut off the whole row, shoot the end grain and start again. I will continue this exercise until I get good and consistent results.

After I am good at the above mentioned exercise, I will cut my first dovetails in softwood and then in hardwood. If everything matches, then I will cut the dovetails on the wall coat rack.

I would like to learn to cut both dovetails and tenons right from the saw (and use chisels only when necessary), so my technique must become correct first.

 

[Jacob]

Thank you very much for your advice. This was exactly my plan as well. I will explain what I am going to do

1. I mark out 5 different types of lines
a) straight line on the face side, straight line on the end grain
b) straight line on the face side, right angled line on the end grain
c) straight line on the face side, left angled line on the end grain
d) right angled line on the face side, straight line on the end grain
e) left angled line on the face side, straight line on the end grain

I will use a dovetail template for the angles. I also mark the waste side on each cut and I alternate the waste side.

This gives me 10 unique combinations that I need to be able to cut precisely just next to the line. I create one row of such lines, that are 30 - 400 mm deep and after I cut them with the gents saw ( I do not have a pistol grip dovetail saw), then I cut off the whole row, shoot the end grain and start again. I will continue this exercise until I get good and consistent results.

After I am good at the above mentioned exercise, I will cut my first dovetails in softwood and then in hardwood. If everything matches, then I will cut the dovetails on the wall coat rack.

I would like to learn to cut both dovetails and tenons right from the saw (and use chisels only when necessary), so my technique must become correct first.

OK in principle but you don't want to over-think it!
I'd definitely practice freehand pin holes first. Freehand has one particular advantage over a marked line - you aren't committed to a line so you aren't tempted to go back a bit to correct a deviation. So you get a cleaner line with one cut, even if it is fractionally off a chosen angle. Small errors then get transferred by careful marking to the pinboard so the fit is good even if off a fraction. Whereas an attempt to "correct" a line may become highly visible.

 

[hennebury]

It takes what it takes, for however long it takes!
If you are not willing to do what it takes, for however long it takes.............do something else.

 

[tibi]

It takes what it takes, for however long it takes!
If you are not willing to do what it takes, for however long it takes.............do something else.

The whole question is about deciding if to use a dovetail joint on a project that I want to give as a gift in two weeks. The question can be said another way. Is it common for people to get acceptable and pleasant-looking results in a short time, or it will take months or years in that case, I would use another joint? It has nothing to do with my willingness to learn or to practice the technique.

 

[hennebury]

No one can answer your question.

 

[furnace]

It has nothing to do with my willingness to learn or to practice the technique.

Given your other messages and serious approach to working, I suspect you will be fine. Good lighting, careful preparation and willingness to learn will get you to your goal before too long.
Good luck

 

[tibi]

Given your other messages and serious approach to working, I suspect you will be fine. Good lighting, careful preparation and willingness to learn will get you to your goal before too long.
Good luck

I am now practising on making L-shaped dovetail template with a single dovetail as a joint between . I have already cracked the end pin twice. So now I will try to make the pinboard without any mallet persuasion. It takes just a very little blow to crack the cherry.

 

[paulrbarnard]

I am now practising on making L-shaped dovetail template with a single dovetail as a joint between . I have already cracked the end pin twice. So now I will try to make the pinboard without any mallet persuasion. It takes just a very little blow to crack the cherry.

Four things to check if you continue to crack off the end pins
1. They are too thin.
2. When transferring the tails to the pins you didn’t get the marking knife right next to the tail. That results in fat pins.
3. Not sawn or parred to the line. This is more usual if going right from the saw and you have not quite cut too the line
4. Not sawn/parred vertical edges to the pins. A slight wedging causes splitting. It could be that the tails are not cut square on the tail board but that is generally the thinner cut so has less effect.

 

[Adam W.]

I would try both pins first and tails first, then decide what way you find best suits you and stick to it.

Despite vigorous arguments for one method over the other, they both produce the same result in the end.

 

[tibi]

Thank you all. This is my 3rd attempt of pins (I am using the same tail part). End pins did not crack now, I was very careful not to use much force on fitting tail to the pin.

I would try it a few more times and hopefully, it will be without those gaps.

 

[Jacob]

If that was for an actual project I'd roughly divide it into 3 and have the tail and the half pins similar sized. As with a mortice - doesn't want to be more than 1/3 width of the component.
If that's just for practice I'd cut off both ends and start afresh with each new attempt.

 

[tibi]

If that was for an actual project I'd roughly divide it into 3 and have the tail and the half pins similar sized. As with a mortice - doesn't want to be more than 1/3 width of the component.
If that's just for practice I'd cut off both ends and start afresh with each new attempt.

This is just a dovetail template. I need to keep the tail part, because there is the angled edge in 1:7 ratio and I cannot cut the tail off. But I will make the tail smaller (which will make pins bigger) and I will cut off the pins and start afrash the pin board.

 

[Jacob]

This is just a dovetail template. I need to keep the tail part, because there is the angled edge in 1:7 ratio and I cannot cut the tail off. But I will make the tail smaller (which will make pins bigger) and I will cut off the pins and start afrash the pin board.

Yes smaller tail or just cut the tail off and the angle stays at 1:7
Be prepared to waste a few bits of wood - it's only offcuts anyway.

 

[Ttrees]

The whole question is about deciding if to use a dovetail joint on a project that I want to give as a gift in two weeks. The question can be said another way. Is it common for people to get acceptable and pleasant-looking results in a short time, or it will take months or years in that case, I would use another joint? It has nothing to do with my willingness to learn or to practice the technique.

I'd say yes, you can get good results sooner than later, surely Cosman's students that never held a saw before are proof of that.
Since you want this, and are seemingly very eager to progress as quick as you can,
then I suggest taking a few snaps of your setup, so we can nit pick.

Whatever saw you're using, it seems to give good results, often the biggest factor,
and obviously very nessecairy should one want results straight off the saw.

Going to take a pot shot guess, and mention that if you're trying to balance any sort of
dovetail marking tool on the end of that wee piece, then you're not going to get near the same sort of registration as you would if the piece were wider.

If that's the case,
Then try having another offcut which is also shot square on the shooting board,
and use the blade of a carpenters square as a straight edge to get both flush/check for flatness by pivoting and all the other tricks Charlesworth mentions.

Secondly, I see a huge undercut, should you look up "tenting"
you would note that the procedure is for this very reason.
Derek Cohen I believe has some articles and possibly youtubes on that.

I'd also suggest you're being too aggressive with the bassline, whether thats
taking too deep of a cut, i.e
You can't expect to get a good pre bassline if you're whacking most of the bevel into the work without making some space for the waste to go first,
Duffs an edge fairly quick,
or not aiming the chisel out of the cut, which is similar.
i.e... looks you're copying the techniques done on larger work,
so don't undercut it like that for the wee sliver you're working on,
much the same as tenting mentioned above, done by hand not mallet.

That's about all I can see is the issue so far.

All the best
Tom

 

[Trextr7monkey]

Spent nearly 20 years running school workshops with pupils from 12 -18 years old. For exam level work kids were encouraged to be creative so lots of variations on dovetails. An emphasis on marking out and taking plenty of time usually got somewhere near but rather than paring away fractions of a millimetre and messing up the kids would file down to the lines using files (which was time consuming but gave them the satisfaction of a decent fitting joint.)

About 10 years into the job we purchased a Leigh jig and suddenly there was an explosion of jobs with perfect dovetails and finger joints which to be fair was a much better use of the student’s limited time. They still made L shaped practice joints to test settings but the files stayed in the racks.

 

[tibi]

I'd say yes, you can get good results sooner than later, surely Cosman's students that never held a saw before are proof of that.
Since you want this, and are seemingly very eager to progress as quick as you can,
then I suggest taking a few snaps of your setup, so we can nit pick.

Whatever saw you're using, it seems to give good results, often the biggest factor,
and obviously very nessecairy should one want results straight off the saw.

Going to take a pot shot guess, and mention that if you're trying to balance any sort of
dovetail marking tool on the end of that wee piece, then you're not going to get near the same sort of registration as you would if the piece were wider.

If that's the case,
Then try having another offcut which is also shot square on the shooting board,
and use the blade of a carpenters square as a straight edge to get both flush/check for flatness by pivoting and all the other tricks Charlesworth mentions.

Secondly, I see a huge undercut, should you look up "tenting"
you would note that the procedure is for this very reason.
Derek Cohen I believe has some articles and possibly youtubes on that.

I'd also suggest you're being too aggressive with the bassline, whether thats
taking too deep of a cut, i.e
You can't expect to get a good pre bassline if you're whacking most of the bevel into the work without making some space for the waste to go first,
Duffs an edge fairly quick,
or not aiming the chisel out of the cut, which is similar.
i.e... looks you're copying the techniques done on larger work,
so don't undercut it like that for the wee sliver you're working on,
much the same as tenting mentioned above, done by hand not mallet.

That's about all I can see is the issue so far.

All the best
Tom

Hi Tom,

Thank you for your advice. I have a small engineers square, which I can register well on this piece. However, for marking the dovetail angle, I need to make lighter passes, as sometimes I need to cut with the bevel of the knife into the work. It is not always possible to orient the bevel into the waste side. When using a chisel, I always turn the bevel into the waste side.

Unfortunatelly, google did not find anything relevant for tenting. Does this technique have another name which I can look up on google/youtube?

I am using this saw with 10 inch blade