How do you do it? Your business

[baldkev]

I guess its a small community down here, but generally, I'll do a house refurb and end up going back to do other stuff on and off for a couple of years, or as is often the case, customers have a home plus a couple of rentals and theres often bits to fix or make.
The frame in pik 1 onwards is something i just built as a divider to seperate the hallway from living room. They wanted it open, no door. It was about 4 years ago i did the main work, taken them that long to decide. In that time ive converted the garage into an art studio, added on a porch, re_sealed the cladding, landscaped part of the garden with new stonework, steps etc. Spread out over the 4 years, no quotes requested. I work on an hourly rate plus materials for almost all of my customers

The mdf cupboards were a job for some people ive done other cupboards and a patio for, same situation, hourly plus materials

 

[blackteaonesugar]

You need to be very accurate on how long things will take you. If you can't do that then I honestly believe you don't have enough experience (in cabinet making)

A bit harsh. It's rare to start up and know everything.
It's a bit chicken and egg.

When I first started quoting, I would sit and picture and write down every single solitary process involved in making something.

Ripping down boards - 45 mins
Planing/thicknessing - 30 mins
Marking out - 1hr
Etc, etc, etc.

It would take ages, I would rarely be that accurate, but I learned from it.

I have a better idea now and instead of picturing the process in minutes and hours I can normally say, well that'll be a couple of days, or two weeks.

I think quoting is actually one of the very hardest things to get right.
I still struggle with it and I've been self employed nearly 4 years now.

 

[baldkev]

Ive been self employed on and off over the last 19/ 20 years... broken up by subcontracting and an employed position as a foreman with a developer. 24, nearly 25 years since starting a carpentry apprenticeship.

As such, site work ( doors, skirts, architraves, cupboards and kitchen fits etc ) is normal for me. Pricing is occasional.

 

[artie]

I think quoting is actually one of the very hardest things to get right.
I still struggle with it and I've been self employed nearly 4 years now.

I had a friend who took over a gun shop a number of years ago. I don't remember the exact circumstances, but he hadn't dreamed of being a gun trader.
I called in one day to see how he was getting on.
He said it was like jumping in to the deep end of the swimming pool if you'd never seen water before.
He said it wasn't too bad selling as stock was priced. The problem was pricing trade ins.
The only advice he'd been given was"if you're buying everything that comes through the door, you're paying too much."
All I could add was, you won't win them all, but that's the price of experience.
He prospered and was there for many years.

All depends how much you want to make it work. IMHO

 

[TFrench]

I work for the family business, we do industrial insulation. I've been quoting jobs for about 10 years now. I still find it hard to sit down and do paperwork when the lads are all grafting because it doesn't feel like proper work. Quite often end up doing quotes after everyone's gone to bed because its the only peace & quiet I get to let me concentrate.

 

[partsandlabour]

I use XERO software to send quotes. Looks fairly pro and easy to generate the document. But it doesn't help with calculating the quote. I used to use a spreadsheet for this and I still do for big jobs, but for small stuff I have a stack of printed 'quick quote forms' with prompts to remind me to include design/office time, fuel etc and otther things that you might normally forget. I go at this with a pencil and file it once done for reference on futue jobs. When I get a material cost I save it in a spreadsheet along with the date, which used to work quite well, but in recent times I've been double checking materials prices so I don't get caught out. Materials and services that I engauge that are suplied by others all get 20% margin added, which covers some of the time arranging/collecting this/ waste handling. Hope this is useful.

 

[johnnyb]

coincidentally yesterday I went to visit a guy I met in s suppliers. I thought he may be a help( and vice versa)his workshop had been disused and he was doing it up for low rent (£200 month)
he had no ambitions beyond boarded gates and planters. he seemed happy enough.

 

[baldkev]

Thanks for the input everyone, an interesting thread. I'll look into the spreadsheets and accountancy software

 

[Jameshow]

coincidentally yesterday I went to visit a guy I met in s suppliers. I thought he may be a help( and vice versa)his workshop had been disused and he was doing it up for low rent (£200 month)
he had no ambitions beyond boarded gates and planters. he seemed happy enough.

Guy near me just produces log lap bird tables and houses. Sells them off the main road!!!

Don't know why he doesn't do anything else or what his wife thinks of the "decoration" of the front if his house!

 

[johnnyb]

I've recently been looking for a somebody to work with on an informal basis. but finding the right person is proving tricksy. one guy brought an extractor and after a chat seemed a good bet. never replied.this recent guy just seemed happy to make these things but seemed a bit scared of getting involved in any "proper stuff" he seemed decent enough as a person though....the search continues!

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Many years ago I worked for a (nameless) highly regarded, and professional public sector organisation which had a commercial division. It was my job to look at the business and advise (a) whether they were actually making any profit and (b) if not, how to improve it.

I quickly found they were losing lots. Their charge out rates (it was a consultancy business) were ~£35ph which they thought was as much as customers would bear. I though otherwise - a car main dealer service would charge ~£70ph, and lawyers £90++.

First year rates for new contracts went up 50%+, the following year 33%. Few customers were lost.

The lesson - don't undersell yourself. A skilled craftsman should expect to be properly rewarded. Simplistic - but you will never compete on price with Ikea, John Lewis etc who sell large volumes from highly automated factories. You are providing a premium specialist service.

Any business, even small, needs decent admin. If you don't like it, employ someone else (part time?) who does. You should be able to earn more from working than it costs to employ support. Family, home or social life is important.

I apologise if this seems overly simplistic - starting up will be more demanding than running a business with an established repeat customer base driven by recommendations. I am also aware that for many work is as much about job satisfaction as maximising financial reward.

 

[baldkev]

I've recently been looking for a somebody to work with on an informal basis. but finding the right person is proving tricksy. one guy brought an extractor and after a chat seemed a good bet. never replied.this recent guy just seemed happy to make these things but seemed a bit scared of getting involved in any "proper stuff" he seemed decent enough as a person though....the search continues!

As in extra labour? I definitely wouldn't recommend any form of partnership, especially with someone you dont know well. It can be tricky to find someone worth bothering with. Maybe a faceache post in your local area ?

 

[Kayen]

I find it a lot easier to stick to certain types of work, in my case fitted furniture. I usually know the price before I've left the client's house at the initial consultation because I price everything on a linear metre - Open (basic) bookshelves £800 per linear mtr - basic (MFC) wardrobes £1000 per linear mtr - media units if sprayed £1500 - £2000 per linear metre and sprayed wardrobes up to £2000 per linear metre. I could never work out prices on time + materials because I always under-estimated both. I always accompany my quote with a 3D Sketchup drawing

 

[johnnyb]

just help(both ways) on An informal basis. I started out with a guy(few years ago) who was a great woody but had mental health issues and disappeared at the first lockdown. I've got a helper I use. I think its really important because bigger stuff needs some help and it's lovely to have someone who is competent. unfortuneatly such people are not common.

 

[Doug71]

To be honest as there is only me and I'm not vat registered there isn't that much bookwork to be done but I still never keep on top of it.

I hate pricing, as I don't specialise in one area of joinery I don't really have a system apart from work out the price of materials needed and guess how long the job will take. I find it really rude when you send someone a price and you never even get a thank you back, some people don't appreciate how much time and effort it can take. As soon as I meet someone I can generally tell if I will be doing the job or not, if I'm not keen on someone I won't work for them.

I often think I could do with getting in with some interior designers or similar as I enjoy doing stuff that's different. I do a few jobs for local builders but that is only when they can't find anyone else capable of doing it and then they always take an age to pay.

 

[baldkev]

I often think I could do with getting in with some interior designers or similar

Yes, ive walked away from a couple of people who i wasnt sure about. A couple if times ive been asked to quote and found out later they were just using me to check another guys pricing... which isnt funny.

Architects are good to get in with, especially if you get across what you like doing, they are often the first port of call for customers, so can be a good way to get in early.

Weirdly, other people in our field can be good contacts too. I have a couple of other carpenters i will recommend if im too busy and the same happens with them passing my details on.

 

[doctor Bob]

As in extra labour? I definitely wouldn't recommend any form of partnership, especially with someone you dont know well. It can be tricky to find someone worth bothering with. Maybe a faceache post in your local area ?

I have a 50/50 business partner, for me it's the best move I ever made, 19 years now and we still laugh like drains most days. Been very lucky and trust him implicitly. He also know more about me than any other person in the world, including my wife.

 

[baldkev]

I have a 50/50 business partner, for me it's the best move I ever made, 19 years now and we still laugh like drains most days. Been very lucky and trust him implicitly. He also know more about me than any other person in the world, including my wife.

Wow
From what ive seen, you got lucky.... i worked for a couple of guys when i was in my apprenticeship. One was a builder, the other partner was a joiner.
There was a continuous battle! The joiner would take on any challenge and tell the customers they could do it, whilst the builder would be saying no, we cant do that!
Then there was the money..... the builder did their books because the joiner hated it... but the builder would add up the income per month, minus the expenses, take his half of what was left, then pay their tax out of the remaining money and then transfer what was left to the joiner

It didnt work out....
Most of the partnership ive come across havent lasted, it would definitely put me off

 

[doctor Bob]

Wow
From what ive seen, you got lucky.... i worked for a couple of guys when i was in my apprenticeship. One was a builder, the other partner was a joiner.
There was a continuous battle! The joiner would take on any challenge and tell the customers they could do it, whilst the builder would be saying no, we cant do that!
Then there was the money..... the builder did their books because the joiner hated it... but the builder would add up the income per month, minus the expenses, take his half of what was left, then pay their tax out of the remaining money and then transfer what was left to the joiner

It didnt work out....
Most of the partnership ive come across havent lasted, it would definitely put me off

If Mick came to me tomorrow and said I need £500k but I can't tell you why, I'd do my best to raise it.
Trust is the ultimate thing. Everything is 50/50.

 

[Mike.R]

I don't enjoy the paperwork but it's a necessary evil. As mentioned above, I would never start work on a job without first agreeing a price. This was a hard and expensive lesson learned many years ago.

I work on my own and try and make the quoting process as painless as possible. I use a Mac and the Numbers app offers a simple spreadsheet that adds everything up for me and files it away. Gone are the days of searching through reams of papers, hunting for a quote I did 2 years ago.

I have all the costs of materials I'm likely to use on hand and keep them updated regularly. Then I have a day rate which takes into account my hourly rate, my workshop costs, insurances, vehicles, holidays, etc, etc. Everything my business cost me in one figure

Then I work out how many days a job will take to manufacture and where necessary fit, add the materials, any delivery costs and that gives me a baseline for the work and I know if I charge anything less I'll be working some hours for nothing.

The one thing I do find slightly unnerving is when costing a job that will take 5 months to make, I am, in effect, locking my income for the foreseeable future. One wrong calculation and might be working July for nothing.

I mainly make kitchens, some wardrobes, the odd home office and the style and construction is often similar which does make the process easier. Estimating the time needed to make truly bespoke furniture is incredibly difficult and I work on a best guess system. If the piece is especially challenging or beautiful I don't mind working some hours for nowt.