How do we get kids to be engineers

[Student]

Interesting that the next topic, at present, is all about the UK's engineering excellence in the 1930's i.e. how to build a steam engine.

 

[Rhyolith]

I should add, whilst I do not personally think Brexit was a smart vote or founded on rationality (as opposed to sentiment), it makes very little difference to me as I have dual passports and can live in Germany or Switzerland any time I like, so this is not colouring my views. Also I am not an employee (except I employ myself) and am old enough that I am entirely relaxed about business and work. It just depresses me that we are creating such a weak future for our kids. We need to let go of past failings (banking crisis and all that) and look forward. We can't change history but we can shape a future. Just saying "we will stand on our town two feet" or words to that effect, along with "it will be tough at first but in the long run it will be fine" does not fill me with confidence that there is a plan. We need a business plan for the UK!

I don't know how you could create a business plan for a whole country... the complexity would be ludicrous. Even just thinking about it in thoery (let alone reality) is an impossible task. Then theres the case of convincing people to follow the plan, and keep following over years (and multiple elections).

I see no realistic way it could happen...

 

[AJB Temple]

Obviously I did not mean in the same sense as a business plan for an enterprise. I mean a plan for business. If we are to create jobs in this country we need a government that actually has a credible plan. We need to identify markets - not just in a vague sense, but an actual export market for goods or services that we have established people want to buy and that we can produce competitively. We need to identify or create market advantage. This needs to be hand in hand with an economic investment and taxation policy, and couple with both short and long term skills training. Instead we seem focussed on being inward looking and public sector investing - which does not add economic wealth it just shifts it from the left hand to the right hand.

 

[woodenstx]

A quick point about labelling:

People like to improve their job description by adding "engineer" onto the end of it. Most of them should be called technicians or repair men/women/persons if they don't hold a qualification which grants then the privilege​ to use the title.

How many times have you heard washing machine engineer or Sky engineer? It belittles the rightful title, so in people's minds it holds less kudos than it should.

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On the flip side, I am an engineer (granted its of wussy systems and not "real" stuff), but I seem to spend my time being the technician as we dont have any of those here and I'll happily get my hands dirty :lol:
And it appears that its getting more common for everyone 'here' to add Manager to their title.... I gave up on that plan since it doesnt achieve anything useful imho. I was at a customer site once doing some integration testing and about 15 people came up to me in dribs and drabs with a self important introduction of "Manager of xyz", in the end I asked if there was anyone about that did some useful work :lol:

As for getting kids into engineering, the Pi/Arduino thing seems to be capturing imaginations, just sadly the teachers cant keep up. I found out my daughter was doing a term on Scratch, so we got my Pi up and running with it and showed her some stuff, she then told me what they "learnt" in class and it was awful. So I voulenteeeeeeered to go in and run through the basics, they all loved it. Showed them how not to code as opposed to the right way Most of them got it, and funnily enough the few class trouble makers actually got on with it well, poor buggers have a life of software engineering ahead of them :lol:

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Not managers, but it's odd how sales reps became "account managers" - it's nearly as irritating a description as "mixologist", "barista" and "human resources"

 

[HappyHacker]

I almost threw my cup of tea at the telly a few weeks ago. While walking through the kitchen my wife was watching The Wright Stuff on the tele. They were talking about education and and the main guy said we do not want our children growing up to do manual jobs.

I thought that is the problem with so much of education today and who is going to do the plastering, electrics, joinery, plumbing, bricklaying, drains, roofing, glazing, landscaping, road building etc on all these millions of new houses we are supposed to be building if all our children have degrees in Politics, Philosophy and Economics and aspire to be politicians.

I think we need some more politicians who have had proper jobs to bring some degree of reality to Westminster.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

My late mother always referred to a local street sweeper - the guy obviously liked his job, had done it for decades and took pride in it. As she said - whatever we think about education, we need street cleaners - the man is happy, pay him a wage he can live on and leave him alone.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I think we need some more politicians who have had proper jobs to bring some degree of reality to Westminster.

I have a friend, a retired teacher, who went into teaching from industry at 30 plus - he always says no one should be allowed to teach until they've had at least ten years working at something else. The same would be good for politics - that someone can do a PPE, take a job as a researcher or become an intern if from a wealthy family (which most are, regardless of political persuasion), and within a few years tell the PM what to do and think - when they've never actually worked for a living is just plain wrong.

 

[AndyT]

Lots of good sense in this thread.
Reading it, I remembered that George Osborne, when he was chancellor, announced a "march of the makers" to revive UK manufacturing. To check when that was, I googled it. The answer was 2011, and the first result was this BBC report trying to explain why it hasn't happened. :-(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35414075

 

[Keith 66]

Practical skills are not valued because too many people know the price of everything & the value of nothing. Everyone wants cheap stuff then moans because it breaks or wont do the job. They want cheap tradesmen so they employ eastern europeans, then they employ someone else cos they are cheaper still. In the school i work with a great team of teachers all of whom are amazed at my skill set on a varied set of machine tools & yet i consider myself to not be an engineer just an average guy, im good at my own trade boatbuilding but im not a cabinet maker. And yert im teaching the teachers on the job because they have very litle woodwork knowledge & absolutely zero metalwork knowledge. Quite how they became d&t teachers im not sure!

 

[nev]

Nearly 5 pages and I don't think anyone mentioned the parents. Surely education in the home is as important or arguably more important than that at school.
Even the most mechanically challenged of parents should be able to cope with a lego or meccanno set to get kids building things from a very young age.
Maybe educational mechanical 'toys' for youngsters should be available at all libraries? (along with some guide books for the really mechanically challenged parents)

 

[Phil Pascoe]

But we now have a generation of parents that have never known meccano etc. - it's no longer tradition. Many children are lucky to find a book in their home, let alone a meccano set.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

We live in a very complex, technological world. We depend on the generation and distribution of electricity, the extraction, storage and distribution of gas, the treatment and distribution of water, the collection, treatment and disposal of sewage, broadband and telephone networks; we have houses, commercial and industrial buildings, we have transport networks by road, rail, air and sea. All of that needs to be designed, made, installed, operated, maintained and periodically replaced - needing engineers, technicians, craftsmen and others with skills by the thousands.

BUT - most of it is 'out of sight, out of mind' to most people. It's taken for granted, most of the time. The sheer number of man-hours expended on installing and maintaining (for example) the street lighting on the average city arterial road just doesn't register with most people. And yet there are many hundreds of worthwhile and reasonably well-paid jobs available just to keep the country ticking over.

Not quite sure what's happened to our education system, but something's out of whack somewhere.

 

[Tasky]

Even the most mechanically challenged of parents should be able to cope with a lego or meccanno set to get kids building things from a very young age.

It's all computers now anyway, though.
For example, what person would want to be a mechanic, when all that maintenance stuff we do today will just be downloading a software update from Tesla in the future... because "Electric Vehicles are the future... and the future is now"... and all that.

That and, "It's all done by computers now, anyway"...

TBH, if I'd followed my parents' teachings, I'd be an overeducated ***** who failed pilot school, didn't get into the RAF, didn't have a clue and, if I was lucky, end up driving a truck for a lifetime and myself into the dirt out the back of a pub somewhere while trying to impress someone... anyone... with my ability to spell long words, as a substitute for actual intellect.

As is, I ignored them entirely, went for the Army instead and ended up working in Civil Engineering!

We depend on the treatment and distribution of water, the collection, treatment and disposal of sewage... All of that needs to be designed, made, installed, operated, maintained and periodically replaced

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh, you were being serious?

And yet there are many hundreds of worthwhile and reasonably well-paid jobs available just to keep the country ticking over.

But far more lower-paying jobs being given this work instead... And far more, higher-paying management roles to find the consultants to think up more red tape to hinder those doing the work, in order to justify the massive budgetary expenses.

Not quite sure what's happened to our education system, but something's out of whack somewhere.

It's all about teaching you to be a career student, with perhaps leanings toward business management and media studies, plus whatever else there's already too much of. You're trained for an industry of competition, not for one of any use.

 

[Stanleymonkey]

I am a primary school teacher. I have been in charge of DT in various schools for over a decade.

I recently did a staff inset after school. I asked how many teachers had had any DT training and only 1 or 2 put up their hands out of the entire teaching staff (from 1-30 years teaching experience!)

It's terrifying for an inexperienced DT person to let 30 kids loose with tools. Same as it is to teach PE for those who aren't into that. Same as it is to teach music or dance to a large group! Without proper training. It's then up to people to pick things up as they go along. Even if you know how to saw / drill. Teaching that to a 6,7,8,9 10 or 11 year old can be daunting.

I could on with a list of negatives.... might do later ; )

On a positive side - kids want to do DT, they want to use tools and make things. They would love the chance to do engineering projects. It is vitally important that they do. From life skills to developing coordination to mental health (I am being serious)

There is also opportunity in the primary sector. There are people who come in and do history days and RE days and sports coaching. Theatre workshops and music teaching. Budgets are tight for now, but I'm sure a company could get into schools and run DT days/weeks in marquees or taking over the school hall with portable benches. INSET day training for teachers after the kids have gone. Even offer an after school club that is paid for.

I'm sure there will be lots who disagree - but I'm trying to come at this from a different direction and believe me - if the problem isn't fixed at primary level, you'll have kids turning up at secondary who don't know what a drill is and are too scared to hold a saw.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

We depend on the treatment and distribution of water, the collection, treatment and disposal of sewage... All of that needs to be designed, made, installed, operated, maintained and periodically replaced

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh, you were being serious?

Yes, I was being serious. Do you think the country would be better off without sewage collection, treatment an disposal?

With respect, I'd appreciate it if you read the whole comment again, instead of selectively editing it and making snarky remarks.

 

[Rhyolith]

On a positive side - kids want to do DT, they want to use tools and make things. They would love the chance to do engineering projects. It is vitally important that they do. From life skills to developing coordination to mental health (I am being serious)

I second this! Teaching practical think streamlines the mind (certainly did for me) similar to how academia expands it and this helps with more or less every aspect of life. As well it shows those with vocational talent (who may well be struggling with academic style work) that they are talented (and not useless... which i see happening to a lot of students ), the value of that confidence boost should not be underestimated.

Even if we decided conclusively that practical skills are utterly useless of the the development of our careers and the country's economy, I think the above more than justifies a proper vocational education for everyone on its own.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I wholeheartedly agree that some practical subjects should form part of a decent, rounded education, alongside academic studies, some sporting activity and a chance to participate in things like music-making and drama. The basics of literacy and numeracy are vital, along with some appreciation of world history and geography, but a narrow focus on academe won't allow everyone the chance to find out what they're good at and what they're not. The drive to send 50% of the population to university (and basically let the rest go hang) was one of the worst educational decisions this country has made in decades, I think.

 

[Keith 66]

Quote' I'm sure there will be lots who disagree - but I'm trying to come at this from a different direction and believe me - if the problem isn't fixed at primary level, you'll have kids turning up at secondary who don't know what a drill is and are too scared to hold a saw. Unquote.

Secondary level? In my experience kids are already turning up at College to do A level never having held a file or hacksaw!
My son is at Uni doing electronics & electrical engineering, he said he was virtually the only one on his course who was already experienced in the workshop, this was not lost on the lecturers & technicians. But i have been teaching him & letting him loose on everything for years! So yes it is about the parents!

 

[Rhyolith]

I wholeheartedly agree that some practical subjects should form part of a decent, rounded education, alongside academic studies, some sporting activity and a chance to participate in things like music-making and drama. The basics of literacy and numeracy are vital, along with some appreciation of world history and geography, but a narrow focus on academe won't allow everyone the chance to find out what they're good at and what they're not. The drive to send 50% of the population to university (and basically let the rest go hang) was one of the worst educational decisions this country has made in decades, I think.

I agree with this.

I think of my generation around 40% have gone to Uni, this is double what it was in my parents day (1970-80s) at 20% (take stats with a pinch of salt, I don't know the sources). At that level I would say at least half the students at my uni were not suited to study academically (least to the the point of being useful or doing well), with many dropping out (these stats seem to be covered up by Uni's). Which is not surprising when you consider just how specialised academic work is, its for only a certain type of person. So trying to force 40% (let alone 50%!) through a system specialised in academia is stupid when you think about it... you need to diversify it according to the increased diversity of people your going to get. Not doing so is just a massive waste of resources and totally de-moralising for anyone who's not a perfect academic (aka most of us), so you end up spending a fair bit of money to get a demoralised workforce with minimal useful skill.

Quote' I'm sure there will be lots who disagree - but I'm trying to come at this from a different direction and believe me - if the problem isn't fixed at primary level, you'll have kids turning up at secondary who don't know what a drill is and are too scared to hold a saw. Unquote.

Secondary level? In my experience kids are already turning up at College to do A level never having held a file or hacksaw!
My son is at Uni doing electronics & electrical engineering, he said he was virtually the only one on his course who was already experienced in the workshop, this was not lost on the lecturers & technicians. But i have been teaching him & letting him loose on everything for years! So yes it is about the parents!

I thinks its overly simplistic to blame just the parents... honestly I feel like most parents (including mine) simply don't have the tools ( literally and metaphorically ) to teach their children practical skills even if they want too. This was the case with me, i wanted to learn practical skills (openly asked to be taught... a lot!) and my parents wanted me to learn them... but they simply didn't have any to teach me.

I believe it does fall on the education system to give children access to the vocational arts.