How do these cuts not cause kick back?

[Spectric]

Your 90 year old grandmother or your sixteen your old kid can go buy a tablesaw, or a chainsaw or sharp knife of any number of dangerous items. I bought a 500cc scrambler motorcycle in 1974, a bit of a step up from my bicycle. All I had to do was pay for it. I bought it after watching a motocross movie. If I got injured, who should be responsible, Robert Redford, the movie producer, the cinema, Yamaha, the dealer that sold me the bike or me?
Life comes with danger, get used to it. Take responsibility for your own safety.

The real world, it seems over here that people think the government is some kind of giant safety net. We had a bad storm and people lost their power supply and then they want to blame the government for not reacting quickly enough or they should have deployed the army, when did you last see a politician up a pole re-stringing cables! In simple terms shiete happens so get over it and be better prepared next time.

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

I think there's a sensible middle ground between the nanny state and throwing babies out into the woods to see if they're tough enough to make worthwhile human beings. We'll each have a position between those extremes.

My view is that it's probably not good to have demonstrations by someone suggesting that they're competent, showing them working in ways that clearly aren't safe, because it's easy to see it not go wrong that time and assume that that's a normal safe thing to do with a tablesaw. I think there's general agreement that dropping a bit of wood onto a spinning saw blade isn't terribly sensible.

Calling for personal responsibility for safety is fine, but only when it works both ways - the same call should be made of people presenting dangerous ways of working. They are responsible to some degree for the outcome of their actions, just as I am responsible for the outcome of mine.

This does of course circle back to the question of protecting people from stupidity, which is another spirited discussion to be had again and again.

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

Let's not forget that he's a practising Satanist, as well.

Now I like him a bit more than I did.

 

[Spectric]

This does of course circle back to the question of protecting people from stupidity,

Stupid people will be stupid and happily follow other stupid people because they don't realise they are stupid because they are too stupid to comprehend stupidity, the problem is that some clever people realise they need protection and so have created jobs for stupid people and now we have a lot of stupid rules and regulations because the stupid people think they are clever and we are the stupid people who need protection.

 

[D_W]

D_W weighing in with criticism of Sellers' stock dimensioning is weird, but not surprising.

It stands out in my mind aside from the fact I've never seen evidence of fine work from him. He's done almost 40 years of farming beginners, but it's evident that he spent his early time feeding wood into a thicknesser.

If he makes a comment about hand tool work being superior but cannot show a beginner how to do rough work with hand tools competently, it's a gimmick as fake as a football bat.

Most of the gurus supposedly teaching people to work by hand set their students up for failure and then argue with people who actually work primarily by hand. They can do so because they ride on a cushion of fanboys.

When I started pushing the cap iron stuff, which is essential to hand dimensioning, Mark hennebury was the only person save one other guy in the US who was on target about it. If Paul had actually worked by hand, it would've been essential for productivity.

The video where Paul takes a later saw handle and mangles it into something horrid looking is just as puzzling in a country where beautiful saw handles were made in bulk.

 

[John Brown]

But it has nothing to do with the thread! You're simply indulging your penchant for criticizing Paul Sellers.

 

[hennebury]

Frist of all, I never gave any opinion of Paul Sellers, I just recognized the description of him.

Secondly as already has been stated he has been pushing the idea that machinery requires no skill or knowledge to use, and you simply push the wood into it and it does the job for you. This is something that in my opinion is something very dangerous for a Guru with half a million devoted followers to be spreading.

I have heard this opinion before over the past 50 years that I have been woodworking, but at no time before has a single person had such power to directly influence so many! With that power should come responsibility to do it right, and Paul Sellers does it wrong!

I'm sorry, if you can't see why the idea that Paul Sellers, who, apart from the occasional use of a cordless drill/driver, uses exclusively hand tools, should be somehow responsible for dangerous attitudes to power tools, is funny.
D_W weighing in with criticism of Sellers' stock dimensioning is weird, but not surprising.


In other news, Linda McCartney responsible for unsafe abbatoir practices.

 

[D_W]

But it has nothing to do with the thread! You're simply indulging your penchant for criticizing Paul Sellers.

it has quite a lot to do with it. Mark made a relevant comment about the idea that this is dangerous in a world where people ride motorcycles and visit other parts of the world, etc, and then brought up paul sellers (who sort of caters to the group thinking there's some lifestyle working by hand and avoiding this danger, but who himself shows no evidence of having ever worked entirely by hand).

Both have to do with narrow exposure and wanting someone to create a very small slice of reality when what most people are missing is experience.

But this kind of hand wringing and use of other people as examples (good or bad) is what internet forums are about and they've existed for as long as I can remember. If you talk with a more experienced group of woodworkers and someone starts on some dogmatic diatribe about safety, it usually results in eyes rolling as it has nothing to do with making things.

There should be a filter for both this kind of topic and one for Paul Sellers and Rob Cosman types. "Here is the beginner safety slice, and over here is your alternative. If you want to spend a lot of time in either of these topics, we'll see you here in this same place in 10 years".

I enjoyed Mark's description of a country by country filter of what is approved and acceptable. If we could use this coarse sieve to keep the folks attracted to this away from the folks talking about making things, it would be great.

 

[D_W]

Frist of all, I never gave any opinion of Paul Sellers, I just recognized the description of him.

Secondly as already has been stated he has been pushing the idea that machinery requires no skill or knowledge to use, and you simply push the wood into it and it does the job for you. This is something that in my opinion is something very dangerous for a Guru with half a million devoted followers to be spreading.

I have heard this opinion before over the past 50 years that I have been woodworking, but at no time before has a single person had such power to directly influence so many! With that power should come responsibility to do it right, and Paul Sellers does it wrong!

There is enough skill in using machinery to do good work (not just square work with joints on the corners and a chamfer) that I don't even comment on it, and one of the reasons that I don't use a lot of machinery (including for making tools) is because it is a skill that you have to learn. It can be flippantly applied like paul describes for someone screwing together garden boxes, but the burden of doing clean work with machines and not making it look like it was designed just to be done by machines is something I'm not interested in - and willingly not (but would have to do if I were going to try to make a go at making money making things - unless I was a *very* good marketer or managed to marry a lady physician. The latter seems unlikely given the undesirability of already married me to married physicians).

 

[John Brown]

Well I guess I need to watch more of Paul Sellers, as I've never noticed him denigrating machine users, or encouraging reckless use if the same. As far as I knew, he was a time-served woodworker. I've no doubt he's quite capable of dimensioning stock by hand. The fact that he apparently doesn't agree with D_W's views on cap irons is of no consequence to me, and probably not to most of the people who watch his stuff. That particular bee doesn't live in my bonnet.
I still think it's ridiculous to drag him into this thread in the first place.

 

[TheTiddles]

What is amusing is how some people attempt to add content to the topic of discussion and others with the smug attitude set themselves up as above that and instead try to insult and belittle those in the discussion. So To all of you super smart buttocks, why don't you take a long look at yourselves, and get of your high horses and join the discussion. It is really easy to sit back and belittle people. poke fun and be sarcastic, it was fun when I was at school in the 60's And I am sure that I can be as rude and belittling as most, if I chose. this thread is in my opinion an interesting and important discussion which you could maybe add something to. If you cant add anything of value to the conversation, maybe you could just not say anything.

Does someone need a hug?

 

[hennebury]

This about sums it up!

 

[TRITON]

Apparently the yanks do get a lot of TS accidents, which is all you need to know! Haven't actually looked up the figures myself.

30,000 Plus accidents per annum, involving 4000 amputations. These will likely be fingers and thumbs, the occasional hand. None of which grow back.

 

[Jacob]

30,000 Plus accidents per annum, involving 4000 amputations. These will likely be fingers and thumbs, the occasional hand. None of which grow back.

Perhaps it's for the best and they lose a few trigger fingers!
Some woodwork lessons with big circular saws and spindle moulders would be good for this lot: family holding guns - Google Search

 

[LeeAkeroyd]

Who's a funny moose? Do I detect a hint of sarcasm in your reply?

If everything has been done, what is all of the fuss about?
Let people post their videos, let whatever happens happen.

If the British government has an official woodworking, Youtube channel showing how to use all of the woodworking machines, what is all the bitching about?

If people can get their videos approved by the health and safety, why all the fuss? just watch government approved videos and you will be safe and happy.

Hey I am fine with that. I have no problem with the guys video, no problem at all, don't have any problem with Alex Honold posting videos of him climbing El Capitan 3000 ft without ropes, or watching isle of mann racing. And I don't need anyone dictating how I work or what I can show about how I work. If you don't like it don't watch it.

Alex Honold climbed 3000ft about 4 hours without safety gear, one slip and he's dead. And you have a bunch of woodworkers complaining about how the video of a guy making a 3 second cut is too dangerous to be allowed for public viewing ?? If you don't know how to use a table saw, don't, if you can't focus for 3 or 4 secs, maybe woodworking is not for you.

The bold future that i dream of is one where children grow up into responsible adults. Where people learn to balance risk with knowledge, skill and confidence, not a world where others dictate what we can see and do. I don't want to live in a world where you can stick your hand into a table saw and not get hurt. I would rather learn to use a tablesaw, understand the danger and use that to focus and concentrate on what I was doing. It seems that many are trying to remove risk and danger from our lives, to remove our need to study and learn, and to accept responsibility for what we do. You don't need to understand or learn anything, you want answers, just google it, some one will give you the answer, no need to waste your time and clutter your brain trying to figure stuff out.

If you want to have an adult discussion about the topic, I am more than willing to discuss it, but if you want to make childish comments, go out and play with the other kids and leave the adults alone.

I had sweaty palms watching Alex Honnold.

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

Stupid people will be stupid and happily follow other stupid people because they don't realise they are stupid because they are too stupid to comprehend stupidity, the problem is that some clever people realise they need protection and so have created jobs for stupid people and now we have a lot of stupid rules and regulations because the stupid people think they are clever and we are the stupid people who need protection.

It depends whether you want to laugh at "stupid" people losing fingers/arms/their lives, or whether you'd prefer a bit less misery and lost blood in the world.

I don't like steering assist on cars; I do like crown guards and riving blades. I don't like A&E clogged up with people who wouldn't have been injured if machinery was appropriately guarded.

I see the appeal of being smug when someone gets hurt, but it doesn't push my buttons.

 

[TheTiddles]

It depends whether you want to laugh at "stupid" people losing fingers/arms/their lives, or whether you'd prefer a bit less misery and lost blood in the world.

I don't like steering assist on cars; I do like crown guards and riving blades. I don't like A&E clogged up with people who wouldn't have been injured if machinery was appropriately guarded.

I see the appeal of being smug when someone gets hurt, but it doesn't push my buttons.

And the irony is most “clever” people are smart enough to realise they don’t know everything and think themselves “stupid”, and the “stupid” people are the ones going round labelling people as “stupid” whilst being so themselves, failing to realise how sad it looks to everyone else.

Seems the less someone knows about a subject the quicker they get to the argumentum ad hominem, though that’d be a step up the pyramid for some.

Now, does anyone want that hug or not?

 

[Spectric]

I don't like A&E clogged up with people who wouldn't have been injured if machinery was appropriately guarded.

The guards will not prevent injury to some folk, you would have to remove the blade.
I have seen accidents in the workplace where all the machinery was fully compliant with PUWER yet the operator has tywraped a safety limit switch because they believe it makes the job easier, operators removing or adjusting guards for the same reason and even in highly regulated industries the workers deliberately tampering with safety interlocks because they do not like the process of needing to go here, do this to be able to obtain a key to continue yet the safety system is there for no other reason than keep them alive. So we all need to realise that people will always suffer injury, no mater what industry, what level of training has been delivered or years of experience the person has because it only takes a split second and your life has changed, could be as simple as a silly argument with the missus and at work your mind drifts and for that split second you are not on the ball.

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

The guards will not prevent injury to some folk, you would have to remove the blade.

They have prevented an enormous number of injuries. That they haven't prevented every injury ever is utterly irrelevant.

 

[John Brown]

This about sums it up!


View attachment 124013View attachment 124014

You are 100% right. Your post sums it up so well!