How do these cuts not cause kick back?

[Keith 66]

There is a difference between doing sketchy stuff in the privacy of your own workshop & posting educational videos of yourself showing newbies how to do it!
If i choose to do what is regarded as dangerous stuff its my look out, my own tablesaw has no riving knife or crown guard fitted, i know its wrong but never got round to fixing it. But no way would i attempt cuts like that guy was doing, I value my fingers too much.
Years ago aged 9 i watched my dad have an accident with a tablesaw, he was cutting a short block of wood & using a push stick, it kicked back violently & the wooden block hit him straight on the chin & nigh on knocked him out, blood everywhere. Best circular saw H&S demo i ever saw!
A year or to ago I saw Louis Sauzeddes Tips from a shipwright channel, guy really knows his stuff but the day i saw him using an angry grinder with an 8" circular saw blade bolted on it to cut planks from the bottom of an old boat was the day i stopped watching him. Doing stuff that is frankly bad practice or downright dangerous in educational videos encourages people to follow suit. The probability is they will not have the same level of skill (or luck) & are liable to get bitten by the saw. By teaching them the wrong way you must bear some responsibility.

 

[transatlantic]

Living is dangerous! driving to work is more dangerous than anything you can do in a workshop! Racing motorcycles at the Ilse on Mann is not for the faint of heart. We choose our poison, that's what you do when your an adult. You make your choice and you take responsibility for that. If I watch the motor cycle racing at the Ilse of Mann and go try to copy that and killed its my own stupid fault. So if I watch a woodworking video and go copy what they guy does and cut my hand off.... it's my own stupid fault! its called being a grown-up! If you are not comfortable doing what he does don't do it! The "fact" think about that for a minute, is that the saw will not grab the wood out of your hand! You are going to have to screw up to get hurt, and if you don't have the focus, concentration, knowledge and commitment. don't do dangerous stuff, because you will get hurt. Don't ride motorcycles at the Ilse of Mann, don't go skiing down mountains, and don't do drop cuts on your table saw, or shaper, because its not for you. The only people that are not at risk of getting injured or killed are already dead. Different people are comfortable with different levels of danger, doesn't make them idiots. Personally I am more comfortable in my own shop with my fingers 1/8" from a spinning 18" uncovered sawblade cranked up with 5 1/2" of blade above the table than I am riding a bicycle on the main road. Danger is everywhere, I am okay dealing with the danger in my shop and willing to accept certain levels of calculated risk that I am comfortable with, you each will have your own level. Perspective is everything!

If you are a child, your parents are responsible for you.
If you are an adult then you are responsible for what you do.

There are a million ways to die. If you want to copy people, you probably will find one.

I think you're comparing apples to oranges there. His video is educational content. How many new woodworkers do you think might have seen his video and tried to copy what he was doing? ... without even knowing the risks?

The experienced woodworker would know its a dodgy cut. The inexperienced might just think its another technique they need to learn to be an accomplished woodworker.

I really enjoy his videos, but I know for a fact he has zero respect for his subscribers health and safety. If he did, he'd be showing safe techniques that achieve similar results.

 

[johnny]

I am reminded of a Youtube video I saw last year .
A guy in the States was running a very successful series of woodworking videos on the tube and had a very well set up workshop.

Then one day his video started with a picture of him standing in his workshop facing the camera with a bandage around his upper arm .
His entire lower arm below the elbow was missing !.....

It was a shocking image that will stay with me forever..........From memory I believe it was a bandsaw that had been left running and a moments distraction .

 

[Sandyn]

Living is dangerous! driving to work is more dangerous than anything you can do in a workshop! Racing motorcycles at the Ilse on Mann is not for the faint of heart. We choose our poison, that's what you do when your an adult. You make your choice and you take responsibility for that. If I watch the motor cycle racing at the Ilse of Mann and go try to copy that and killed its my own stupid fault.

I couldn't agree more.

I have a solution which would drastically cut accidents. Stop selling all these very dangerous tools. Table saws are dangerous. planers are dangerous, bandsaws are dangerous, routers are dangerous, lathes are dangerous. You can buy any of these tools take them home and start using them without any training. You could loose limbs or fingers at the blink of an eye assuming it hasn't been removed by that flying bit of wood.

 

[jcassidy]

I couldn't agree more.

I have a solution which would drastically cut accidents. Stop selling all these very dangerous tools. Table saws are dangerous. planers are dangerous, bandsaws are dangerous, routers are dangerous, lathes are dangerous. You can buy any of these tools take them home and start using them without any training. You could loose limbs or fingers at the blink of an eye assuming it hasn't been removed by that flying bit of wood.

That's not the point that being made and you are both being facetious.

The point is, if you are going to produce YouTube content for a general audience, you should pitch your productions appropriately.

But don't worry, some fool is going to follow the suggestions and lose half their face and sue for a bucketful of money, and then we'll see guards, riving knives, safety goggles and disclaimers galore. The US tends to rely on litigation to drive H&S concerns.

 

[Droogs]

If you are running a business that uses youtube to endorse the practices you use as an encouragement for people to use you as a source of educational information and to promote their sending of money to you, then you have a legal responsibility to ensure safe practice. His aren't and I have reported his video for dangerous practices to youtube and reported youtube to HSE as the publisher of the material in the UK, regardless of their claims otherwise

 

[BucksDad]

I am reminded of a Youtube video I saw last year .
A guy in the States was running a very successful series of woodworking videos on the tube and had a very well set up workshop.

Then one day his video started with a picture of him standing in his workshop facing the camera with a bandage around his upper arm .
His entire lower arm below the elbow was missing !.....

It was a shocking image that will stay with me forever..........From memory I believe it was a bandsaw that had been left running and a moments distraction .

Can you remember the person / link to the video?

 

[hennebury]

If I post a video on YouTube of the way that I work, its because that's the way that i work. I am not telling you to work that way. I have every right to show how I work. You apparently want to censor that, which is what you are talking about. You want to play parent to all the grown-ups, you think that you know better and should control what they are allowed to watch. Starting to sound like dictators running a police state. What level of danger will you allow? who will decide?
From what I have seen and heard most of the accidents in the workshop are caused by people using push sticks, when they would have had better control holding the wood, or people not understanding what they are doing, or not paying attention. The very title of this thread shows a lack of understanding of the principles involved in kickback. Holding the work securely and doing drop-cuts wont cause kick-back, as the guy in the video proved. Being nervous and not having firm control of the wood, letting the wood come back towards you can start a kick-back, so if you don't understand that and don't have the confidence to firmly hold the wood.... don't attempt it. You can do the operation safer, by putting a stop block of the fence, for and aft of the blade. Also by winding the blade up into the wood, as long as the wood is against the stops and held firmly. Lots of ways of doing it, different levels of danger.

You can do dangerous operations with a reasonable amount of safety, within certain limits, that is about understanding the danger, understanding your knowledge, experience, an being confident in your ability to focus and control what you are doing, that's a personnel judgement. You know the dangers, you understand what can happen and why, you take precautions that you are comfortable with, like having your hands of the correct side of the blade, in case things go wrong.
I have seen many so called safety conscious people, doing stuff in a way that I wouldn't, they scare the crap out of me. I have my way of working and that's a very personal choice. My safety is up to me, I will not let anyone dictate how I can work. If I make a mistake and get hurt it will be no ones fault but mine, and I am okay with that.

In terms of danger, Just about everything on youtube shows something dangerous, where would you start, golf is dangerous, so jumping off mountains in a wingsuit, every sport that you could think of is dangerous...well except soccer. MMA, downhill skiiing, skateboarding, figure skating, powerlifting, gymnastics, auto racing, and on and on ..... Living is being in the state of danger! that's life , and there is only one way out.

What you are telling me is that, I can work whatever way that I want, but if i do a public video, I cant show the way that I work and must pretend that I work differently, to protect the innocent public. So In your opinion every video on the internet should be made for absolute beginners? Made for the people with no knowledge, experience or the common sense to know that they have none, and they can blindly copy what's on the video without any repercussions, because you will have removed all potential danger.

You want to remove everything on Youtube that shows something that has an element of danger? give me a break.
How about instead of you trying to be everyone's dad, we let people be grown-ups and take responsibility for what they do.
How about having a society where people get to take personal responsibility seriously, instead of state run control over everything you do.

I grew up in a different age I guess.

Anyway... got to fly, I just ordered a new wingsuit on amazon, should be here soon, can't wait to try it out, wish me luck on my maiden flight.

 

[baldkev]

Anyway... got to fly, I just ordered a new wingsuit on amazon, should be here soon, can't wait to try it out, wish me luck on my maiden flight.

Dont forget your gopro

 

[Ttrees]

I agree that everyone should try and demonstrate how to do things as safe as they can, otherwise
why show something at all if it's not a good method.

A banner somewhere might be what could happen eventually, although imagine how ridiculous that could go if it were even the case, youtubers or their supporters reporting on other youtubers!

Seems an easy solution for googletube to do though.
I imagine the algorithm could sort out who gets paid and who doesn't, much like it does already
but a redlist of constantly dangerous practices could be another tool in which the machine would likely use for profit, somehow I guess?

Seem they make money from that guy
I think it's the only channel I've ever hit the "don't recommend channel" button on.
He clearly plans these things from the outset to make a controversial video, as is evident
from the multiple useless projects instead of making good workshop aids,
which I'd reckon was where he started from.
I'd guess there are plenty folks getting into heated arguments and returning again for more on that video right now, lol!

I would post a comment on some other tablesaw videos, where 99% of folk have good intentions,
though some have seemingly no knowledge about HSE this side of the pond, so if only to state a HSE pushstick length to those who promote the shoe,
but I'd never give that channel the airtime.


There are some who are actually in danger of hurting themselves.
I've seen one video where someone has mentioned they learned everything from him and thankful that they can work safely on their tablesaw now
Not sure if that fella has watched other publications since then, but I sincerely hope he has.

All the best
Tom

 

[Daniel2]

If I post a video on YouTube of the way that I work, its because that's the way that i work. I am not telling you to work that way. I have every right to show how I work. You apparently want to censor that, which is what you are talking about. You want to play parent to all the grown-ups, you think that you know better and should control what they are allowed to watch. Starting to sound like dictators running a police state. What level of danger will you allow? who will decide?
From what I have seen and heard most of the accidents in the workshop are caused by people using push sticks, when they would have had better control holding the wood, or people not understanding what they are doing, or not paying attention. The very title of this thread shows a lack of understanding of the principles involved in kickback. Holding the work securely and doing drop-cuts wont cause kick-back, as the guy in the video proved. Being nervous and not having firm control of the wood, letting the wood come back towards you can start a kick-back, so if you don't understand that and don't have the confidence to firmly hold the wood.... don't attempt it. You can do the operation safer, by putting a stop block of the fence, for and aft of the blade. Also by winding the blade up into the wood, as long as the wood is against the stops and held firmly. Lots of ways of doing it, different levels of danger.

You can do dangerous operations with a reasonable amount of safety, within certain limits, that is about understanding the danger, understanding your knowledge, experience, an being confident in your ability to focus and control what you are doing, that's a personnel judgement. You know the dangers, you understand what can happen and why, you take precautions that you are comfortable with, like having your hands of the correct side of the blade, in case things go wrong.
I have seen many so called safety conscious people, doing stuff in a way that I wouldn't, they scare the rubbish out of me. I have my way of working and that's a very personal choice. My safety is up to me, I will not let anyone dictate how I can work. If I make a mistake and get hurt it will be no ones fault but mine, and I am okay with that.

In terms of danger, Just about everything on youtube shows something dangerous, where would you start, golf is dangerous, so jumping off mountains in a wingsuit, every sport that you could think of is dangerous...well except soccer. MMA, downhill skiiing, skateboarding, figure skating, powerlifting, gymnastics, auto racing, and on and on ..... Living is being in the state of danger! that's life , and there is only one way out.

What you are telling me is that, I can work whatever way that I want, but if i do a public video, I cant show the way that I work and must pretend that I work differently, to protect the innocent public. So In your opinion every video on the internet should be made for absolute beginners? Made for the people with no knowledge, experience or the common sense to know that they have none, and they can blindly copy what's on the video without any repercussions, because you will have removed all potential danger.

You want to remove everything on Youtube that shows something that has an element of danger? give me a break.
How about instead of you trying to be everyone's dad, we let people be grown-ups and take responsibility for what they do.
How about having a society where people get to take personal responsibility seriously, instead of state run control over everything you do.

I grew up in a different age I guess.

Anyway... got to fly, I just ordered a new wingsuit on amazon, should be here soon, can't wait to try it out, wish me luck on my maiden flight.

View attachment 123548

Deary me.
There is so much you simply don't understand.
It is people like you that make You Tube so dangerous.

 

[Bojam]

I am relatively new to woodworking and have had no formal training. In fact I have relied heavily upon online resources to learn to use the equipment I have at my disposal. As a newbie though, it is not always easy to differentiate between reliable sources of good practice and people doing stupid stuff. I am super cautious, read manuals carefully, seek out info and advice, even pay for online tuition where I think it's necessary (e.g. @Peter Sefton's excellent bandsaw series). I cross check and verify until I'm happy that I know what I intend to do is sensible. Ultimately I take my time and don't do anything I'm not sure about. Does that mean that I can't or won't have an accident. No. But it does mean that I am taking personal responsibility for my working practices and personal safety. If stuff goes wrong and I have an accident then I would only hold myself responsible.

I guess we can all agree that Natsuki Ishitani is an incredibly gifted craftsman. His Youtube videos show him making all manner of beautiful furniture and other wooden objects. He doesn't attempt to educate in a direct sense. There is no guidance offered, no tips or tricks, indeed no voiceover at all. Just him making stuff in his own workshop alone. Nevertheless, each video starts with the following disclaimer:

I think that this might offer some kind of compromise position to the polarised discussion above. Yes we all have to assume personal responsibility for our actions in our own workshops. And, yes, if someone sets out to explicitly educate people through Youtube or any other media then they have an obligation to demonstrate and promote safe working practices and certainly not showcase unnecessarily dangerous practices.

But there are some (many?) woodworking channels on Youtube where the aim is not primarily to educate - like the Ishitani Furniture channel. In such cases I would argue that there is a minimum obligation to have a clear disclaimer, like that above, noting that this content is not designed to be educational and that people should make themselves aware of good practice (by e.g. seeking out necessary safety information, guidance or training from legitimate sources).

I love watching Ishitani's content. The stuff he makes is amazing and watching him work is inspiring. I don't want to see his content censored because he doesn't always follow HSE protocols. But I do acknowledge that the way he works is not (necessarily) the way I should work and he makes this point VERY CLEARLY at the outset of every video.

 

[Daniel2]

I am relatively new to woodworking and have had no formal training. In fact I have largely relied heavily upon online resources to learn to use the equipment I have at my disposal. As a newbie though, it is not always easy to differentiate between reliable sources of good practice and people doing stupid stuff. I am super cautious, read manuals carefully, seek out info and advice, even pay for online tuition where I think it's necessary (e.g. @Peter Sefton's excellent bandsaw series). I cross check and verify until I'm happy that I know what I intend to do is sensible. Ultimately I take my time and don't do anything I'm not sure about. Does that mean that I can't or won't have an accident. No. But it does mean that I am taking personal responsibility for my working practices and personal safety. If stuff goes wrong and I have an accident then I would only hold myself responsible.

I guess we can all agree that Natsuki Ishitani is an incredibly gifted craftsman. His Youtube videos show him making all manner of beautiful furniture and other wooden objects. He doesn't attempt to educate in a direct sense. There is no guidance offered, no tips or tricks, indeed no voiceover at all. Just him making stuff in his own workshop alone. Nevertheless, each video starts with the following disclaimer:

View attachment 123550
I think that this might offer some kind of compromise position to the polarised discussion above. Yes we all have to assume personal responsibility for our actions in our own workshops. And, yes, if someone sets out to explicitly educate people through Youtube or any other media then they have an obligation to demonstrate and promote safe working practices and certainly not showcase unnecessarily dangerous practices.

But there are some (many?) woodworking channels on Youtube where the aim is not primarily to educate - like the Ishitani Furniture channel. In such cases I would argue that there is a minimum obligation to have a clear disclaimer, like that above, noting that this content is not designed to be educational and that people should make themselves aware of good practice (by e.g. seeking out necessary safety information, guidance or training from legitimate sources).

I love watching Ishitani's content. The stuff he makes is amazing and watching him work is inspiring. I don't want to see his content censored because he doesn't always follow HSE protocols. But I do acknowledge that the way he works is not (necessarily) the way I should work and he makes this point VERY CLEARLY at the outset of every video.

You are overlooking the point that many people do perceive these videos as educational.
They digest the content as a way of how things need to be done.
Many of these you tube warriors are, very simply, accidents waiting to happen.

 

[Bojam]

You are overlooking the point that many people do perceive these videos as educational.
They digest the content as a way of how things need to be done.
Many of these you tube warriors are, very simply, accidents waiting to happen.

I'm not overlooking that point. I believe that all woodworking content - designed to be educational or simply illustrative - should have a mandatory disclaimer clearly stating that woodworking is inherently dangerous and not to copy the ways of working shown without referring to safety manuals and other sources of advice/guidance/training.

In cases where people are posting explicitly "educational" content - i.e. where they are actively providing guidance, tips, etc. on working practice - then the bar should be set higher. I agree that as it stands, anyone can post anything and give the impression of good practice to the unaware.

 

[Bojam]

To pursue the Alex Honnold analogy, just because there are publicly available videos of some dude free soloing an enormous wall surely doesn't constitute a recommendation that everyone / all climbers should just go right ahead and copy his example. At a minimum they would need to seek advice/guidance/training before even considering whether such a plan was sensible. If they went ahead without the necessary knowledge and skill and had an accident then would Alex Honnold be to blame?

I'm pretty sure that we've all seen TV shows that have disclaimers saying "don't try this at home". If someone then decides to try it at home and has an accident, where does the culpability lie?

We need disclaimers on all dangerous content (which in woodworking terms is pretty much everything) saying refer to the guidelines, read the manuals, get training, seek advice, etc. And also, take personal responsibility for your actions. If your not sure or not confident then don't do it.

 

[jcassidy]

As i said earlier, a disclaimer of the sort mentioned should be a minimum.

But that might /probably will impact the business model of many of these people, which is to sell ads to folks looking for help, advice and guidance.

You can't have a disclaimer saying "Folks, don't do this at home!!!" if you're trying to sell the idea that watching-this-video-will-explain-everything"

 

[Daniel2]

To pursue the Alex Honnold analogy, just because there are publicly available videos of some dude free soloing an enormous wall surely doesn't constitute a recommendation that everyone / all climbers should just go right ahead and copy his example. At a minimum they would need to seek advice/guidance/training before even considering whether such a plan was sensible. If they went ahead without the necessary knowledge and skill and had an accident then would Alex Honnold be to blame?

I'm pretty sure that we've all seen TV shows that have disclaimers saying "don't try this at home". If someone then decides to try it at home and has an accident, where does the culpability lie?

We need disclaimers on all dangerous content (which in woodworking terms is pretty much everything) saying refer to the guidelines, read the manuals, get training, seek advice, etc. And also, take personal responsibility for your actions. If your not sure or not confident then don't do it.

Try and get away from the blaming someone else culture for a moment....!!
What we are really talking about is not giving people the wrong information,
whereby they might, quite innocently, injure themselves.

 

[Bojam]

Try and get away from the blaming someone else culture for a moment....!!
What we are really talking about is not giving people the wrong information,
whereby they might, quite innocently, injure themselves.

Actually I'm talking about the NOT blaming someone else culture we need to instill. Disclaimers on everything: woodworking is dangerous. And explicitly educational content needs to be geared towards providing good guidance on safe working practices (how to regulate Youtube content is the thorny issue). Underlying the whole discussion for me though is the need to assume personal responsibility for how we work / do our hobbies. Don't just rely on a single youtube clip as a point of reference on how to use a dangerous tool or do a potentially dangerous operation. In the workplace the employer has an obligation to ensure that their employees know how to use dangerous equipment safely to do their job and that they follow the protocols. At home, in our private workshops, we have an obligation to protect ourselves by reading the manuals and seeking proper guidance from legitimate sources.

 

[Daniel2]

Snip....
From what I have seen and heard most of the accidents in the workshop are caused by people using push sticks, when they would have had better control holding the wood,

I'd love some of whatever you're smoking.

 

[TRITON]

He's a very experienced woodworker. However it's pretty dangerous to show these type of cuts to a random youtuber, who will probably copy him and it will go badly wrong!

I'm a very experienced woodworker, many here are. But there is good practice and there is bad practice, and that vid shows bad practice. So in truth it doesn't matter how experienced you are, it only means you've become complacent. He is no longer in respect of the machine.

When the accident comes, and it will, he can only hope its the type where he can snatch his hands backward quickly and end up uninjured.

Plus in the vid we see sleeves up and also sleeves down. I would never ever ever use a machine with my sleeves below the elbows.

and don't do drop cuts on your table saw, or shaper, because its not for you.

Clearly you're untrained. Any drop cutting requires back and forward end stops and i see none. He's doing it entirely freehand, so nobody is ever trained that way, and as you see it as an ok practice, I'd say you also havent a clue what you're on about.