Hi Angle Hijinks

[Philly]

Hi All
There has been a lot of discussion lately amongst hand plane nerds on the benefits of the bevel up planes (i.e. block plane types, low angle jack, etc) especially when grinding the blades for a higher than regular angle. I have a L-N low angle jack, but as I use it for the shooting board (and want the benefit of the low angle blade) didn't want to try grinding the bevel to a higher angle.
As the blade is supported by the bed all the way through to where it exits the mouth (as opposed to regular bevel down bench planes where the last few mm are in the air) this gives more support to the cutting edge, resulting in less chatter and a smoother (read better quality) cut. At least thats the theory.......
I bought a Veritas low angle smoother recently and purchased the high angle blade to go in it (only £8 off that nice Martin Brimarc :wink: ) This plane is a real beauty-I was very impressed with the build quality and attention to detail. Please read Alf's in depth review for the details-needless to say, I love it. I ground the bevel at 42 degrees on the blade, and combined with the 12 degree bed angle gives 60 degrees.
My top "nasty interlocked timber" smoother has been the HNT Gordon plane. This too is bedded at 60 degrees. So, a competition has been forming in my mind...
Gave both planes irons a polish up to the best of my ability.
Plop a plank of nasty ovangkol on the bench and away we go......
(forgot to mention-the veritas has an adjustable mouth, like a block plane. This lets me close the mouth right down-and there is a stop screw to stop you dinking the blade. Fantastic-cheers Veritas! :wink: )
The Gordon happily swiped fluffy shavings off with no tearout. Good Boy!
The Veritas (try saying that three times quickly :lol: ) , with mouth closed right down, did the same. Yup, high angle+tight mouth+fine shaving=perfect surface in "un-planable" stock.

Don't know if you can make it out in the pic, but the shavings are 1 thou of an inch. That is fine (and also tells you the sole of the plane is pretty darn flat) You can see how tight the mouth is. I haven't shown the Gordon as the results were the same.

Now look at that-a perfect, gleaming finish. Sandpaper not needed.
So-to sum up. High angle planes are the real deal for tough to plane timbers. Personally, the Veritas is a lot easier to use than wooden HNT Gordon plane, although the knack is easy to pick up with a little practise. The Veritas smoother is a superb plane (at a good price-I paid less than £130 for mine) and the results speak for themselves. And of course, I still have the low angle blade ready for a little end grain use if I need it.
Hope this is of interest,
Philly

 

[Chris Knight]

Philly,
A nice demo, thanks.

 

[Gill]

Very interesting and informative, Philly. Thanks.

Gill

 

[bugbear]

ovangkol

Wow! Does it look that much like English walnut in real life?

(Oh, and while we're discussing high angle planing, I'll just remind people of the 3 ways to achieve this)

* high angle frog in bevel down plane
* high bevel angle on blade in bevel up plane
* back bevel in bevel down plane

(DC has been trying the latter recently)

I had an interesting discussion a few years back with a very experienced worker who used a high angle blade grind in a #9 1/2 as his "nothing else will handle this grain" smoother. Since this is a small plane, he only used it on "trouble spots", not whole boards.

BugBear

 

[Philly]

BB
Depends on the light-the dark streaks are much darker.
As to the 3 methods-
My HNT Gordon is type 1 (no chipbreaker either)
My Veritas is type 2.
My Clifton #5 is used type 3.
I recently (ish) did the back bevel thing here....
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... back+bevel

All three methods work, although it must be said only with fine shavings. If you try and take whoppers off it will still tearout.
Cheers
Philly

 

[Anonymous]

Pretty impressive stuff Philly. How would you rate the veritas against the LN?

Cheers

Tony (who's STILL waiting for his high angle frog from Maine :evil: )

 

[Philly]

Tony
OOH...... 8)
Not much in it-
Lie-Nielsen-beautifully engineered, nice handles, flat, true and works perfect.
Veritas-Beautifully engineered, handles :roll: , flat, true, some clever little extras (set screws to centre blade, screw to stop blade hitting toe piece), cheaper than L-N and works perfectly.

You decide. :lol:
Philly

 

[Alf]

Mmm, nice finish. Sure you didn't use that abrasive...? :wink: So what did it look like with a regular pitch + sharp iron + fine cut, just out of interest?

I'm becoming more and more convinced the high angle bevel in a bevel up plane has got to be number one choice for achieving a higher pitch. Lots of things in its favour, and personally I struggle to find the cons - unless you can call having less justification for a wide range of planes from which to choose a con (yeah okay, so I've just found one... :lol: ). Never thought I'd turn into such a convert, but what can you do when the evidence is right before your eyes? :roll:

Tony, I'd add to Philly's list the space between the back of the iron/adjuster and the rear tote on the Veritas - might be an issue. On the other hand the adjustment mechanism of the LN is a fussy PITA, and the Veritas is a clear winner there.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Frank D.]

Ah Philly,
I see you've been hit with the Veritas bevel-up curse. You'll never shake it off now, you'll find yourself grabbing that plane for almost every kind of job. I was a stark bevel-down defender in the up-down debate, till I actually tried a bevel-up plane extensively. In my (limited) experience I achieved better results on difficult grain with equivalent included angles. That really surprised me. I agree with you about the handles though, when I have nothing better to do I'm going to take a rasp to mine, there's enough wood to bring them down pretty much to the same shape as the LN handles. I also have the LN version (62) and I think that on the whole the LV plane is functionally better. I really like the set screw for the mouth opening and, while I don't particularly like lateral adjusters (I've always gotten fine results using my fingers) I really like the extra wiggle-room the veritas offers. The extra width is nice for some jobs too. I keep my LN sharpened at 45° and use it as a super-smoother.
Frank

 

[Anonymous]

Already bought the LN LA smoother Heart was lost to LN ages ago :?

To be honest, I know the LV is superior in soime ways and the LN in others, but I just don't like the 'look' of the LV bench planes. It's really that simple

I love their shoulder planes though :wink:

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Hi Philly

Nice piece.

The whole concept of high angle bevel up planes is going to be (if not already) the New Order. Both Alf and I have been involved with reviews of the LV LA planes and, from my side, I went into this a little skeptical, and came out not just a believer, but a convert. And you know what they say about converts ... :roll:

Since I work mostly with Australian hardwoods the need has always been to find planes that would do justice here. The HNT Gordon are obvious choices and the Smoother and Try Plane have long been favourites of mine. Consequently, I compared the HNT Gordon Smoother with the LV LA Smoother, but the latter blade was micro bevelled to a 64 degree cutting angle (following discussion with Lyn Mangiameli). The result in my test was that the LV plane outpointed the HNT Gordon plane.

The complete article is at:
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=handtools&file=articles_461.shtml

Talking of bevel up planes, I thought I would mention one that I have been using recently and that has become quite a favourite. This is a vintage Stanley #18 Knucklehead (small) block plane. For those unfamiliar with it, it has a standard angle of 20 degrees. This, along with a 25 degreed bevel blade, produces a cutting angle of 45 degrees. It is not my favourite plane for end grain (I prefer either my Stanley #65 Knucklehead/Hock blade and LN bronze #102). So I reground the #18s' blade to 35 degrees, which now gives a cutting angle of 55 degrees. Combining this with an adjustable mouth, which is closed up tightly, you end up with a small smoother that will plane the gnarliest of interlinked grain, and is just right for the small sections you would otherwise find too cumbersome with a full sized smoother. If you can try this, you will like it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Alf]

I just don't like the 'look' of the LV bench planes.

Woodworking blindfolded is the coming thing, didn't you know...? :wink:

I went into this a little skeptical, and came out not just a believer, but a convert.

Ditto. I was more than a little sceptical to be honest.

So I reground the #18s' blade to 35 degrees, which now gives a cutting angle of 55 degrees. Combining this with an adjustable mouth, which is closed up tightly, you end up with a small smoother that will plane the gnarliest of interlinked grain, and is just right for the small sections you would otherwise find too cumbersome with a full sized smoother. If you can try this, you will like it.

My gut instict is the Veritas low angle with the ball tail and knob would be ideal for that purpose - giving slightly better grip on the plane than a straight block plane. Anyone with one tried it? Wish I'd played about more with that when I had them for review now, but I don't suppose I'd have been very popular if I'd started messing about with the bevel angle.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

One last point regarding the #18 modification, note that Bugbear earlier mentioned the #9-1/2 block plane, which is the latter day incarnation of that plane. My apologies Paul for not acknowledging this earlier on.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Frank D.]

I use my LN standard angle block as a small smoother too, same as you Derek I have the blade ground to a high angle. I used to own the LV version but find the LN block planes perform and feel better in my hand. I see the wider blade on the Veritas as a handicap.
Frank

 

[Philly]

Derek
I had read your article before-nice one, very informative.
I am very impressed with the smoother-my only moan is the front knob. It is a nice size but my standard grip has my left hand almost vertical, sometimes with my fingers as a fence. On this plane the side of my hand rubs on the body, causing quite some discomfort over a session. It is high enough but I would need to put my palm directly on the top-I then feel I cant see what i'm doing. Maybe a replacement will be turned on the lathe, who knows?
Apart from that, the plane cuts really well. Count me in with the converts!
Cheers
Philly

 

[Alf]

I see the wider blade on the Veritas as a handicap.

Ah, good point, Frank. I'd forgotten it was wider.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Philly]

Oh, Alf-forgot to mention. Yes, I know there is some sandpaper in the backround of one of the shots. Considered taking the photo again without, but assumed you lot would trust me :lol: :lol:
I definitely didn't touch up the timber-that is direct from the plane. Would kinda defeat the object really.
And yes, I know you were joking :wink:
Just come back in from the workshop-been planing up some curly sycamore. The hi-angle blade leaves it shimmering with zero tear-out.
I love 60 degrees!
Philly