Help please.

[totlxtc]

Hi all,

Now i must say im from the younger generation that was not allowed to learn woodwork/metalwork in school as EU legislation said it was unsafe. But luckily my father is an engineer and wildfowl carver and has helped me along during life. So please do not get too technical as i would like to get very good at what i do.

Im in desperate need of some help. Ive been playing around doing up snooker/pool cues for about a year now, even building my own workshop. Ive now started to make my own cues but i am experiencing some problems with adhesives.

When using PVA for splices and veneers, no matter what i always get a little unsightly glueline. Ive tried araldite on recommendation and I destuction tested it and in my eyes was not good enough.

Another thing is i will be fitting joints. This I have not done yet but will in the coming week. What would the best glue be for setting the brass join to Cocobolo and Ash?

Any help would be great as i am very much a newbie and would like to progress but i am stuck at the moment.

Here is some pics of my "escape":

http://s611.photobucket.com/albums/tt193/totlxtc1978/?mediafilter=images

 

[Boz62]

Hi all,

Now i must say im from the younger generation that was not allowed to learn woodwork/metalwork in school as EU legislation said it was unsafe. But luckily my father is an engineer and wildfowl carver and has helped me along during life. So please do not get too technical as i would like to get very good at what i do.

Im in desperate need of some help. Ive been playing around doing up snooker/pool cues for about a year now, even building my own workshop. Ive now started to make my own cues but i am experiencing some problems with adhesives.

When using PVA for splices and veneers, no matter what i always get a little unsightly glueline. Ive tried araldite on recommendation and I destuction tested it and in my eyes was not good enough.

Another thing is i will be fitting joints. This I have not done yet but will in the coming week. What would the best glue be for setting the brass join to Cocobolo and Ash?

Any help would be great as i am very much a newbie and would like to progress but i am stuck at the moment.

Here is some pics of my "escape":

http://s611.photobucket.com/albums/tt193/totlxtc1978/?mediafilter=images

Hi, Welcome!

I've quoted your post so that the URL appears, this is the Spam filter and will go after you've made 3 posts.

Personally, I'd use 5 min epoxy for brass/wood bonds. Clean the wood surface with white spirit first, and roughen the brass to give a good key. That is the easy one. I'll leave the experts to comment ref the wood glue-line.

I like your workshop. Very envious of your lathe as well 8).

Good luck

Boz

 

[totlxtc]

Hi all,

Now i must say im from the younger generation that was not allowed to learn woodwork/metalwork in school as EU legislation said it was unsafe. But luckily my father is an engineer and wildfowl carver and has helped me along during life. So please do not get too technical as i would like to get very good at what i do.

Im in desperate need of some help. Ive been playing around doing up snooker/pool cues for about a year now, even building my own workshop. Ive now started to make my own cues but i am experiencing some problems with adhesives.

When using PVA for splices and veneers, no matter what i always get a little unsightly glueline. Ive tried araldite on recommendation and I destuction tested it and in my eyes was not good enough.

Another thing is i will be fitting joints. This I have not done yet but will in the coming week. What would the best glue be for setting the brass join to Cocobolo and Ash?

Any help would be great as i am very much a newbie and would like to progress but i am stuck at the moment.

Here is some pics of my "escape":

http://s611.photobucket.com/albums/tt193/totlxtc1978/?mediafilter=images

Hi, Welcome!

I've quoted your post so that the URL appears, this is the Spam filter and will go after you've made 3 posts.

Personally, I'd use 5 min epoxy for brass/wood bonds. Clean the wood surface with white spirit first, and roughen the brass to give a good key. That is the easy one. I'll leave the experts to comment ref the wood glue-line.

I like your workshop. Very envious of your lathe as well 8).

Good luck

Boz

Thankyou ill have a look into that. Just noticed your in West Oxon. Im near Witney

 

[FogggyTown]

Welcome to the Group!

As far as the glue line is concerned, do you mean that it is "raised" so that it can be felt or that it is "visible" in contrast to the wood? Or both?

Hand sanding down to as high as 600 grit is the answer to the first problem. The second problem is one more of trial and error. PVA glues can come in yellow, white or dark. Some dry clear. I would experiment with dying a small quantity of yellow or dark glue in a little pot using an appropriate wood dye ONE DROP AT A TIME and MIXED WELL then applying to a couple small pieces of scrap until you get a decent dried colour match. (You can also use food colourings.) Just remember that the ratio of colourant to glue must be VERY LOW so you don't run the risk of affecting the glue properties.

 

[totlxtc]

Welcome to the Group!

As far as the glue line is concerned, do you mean that it is "raised" so that it can be felt or that it is "visible" in contrast to the wood? Or both?

Its visible in the wood. It wont be around the whole area. 9 times out of 10, 90% of the piece has no visible line. But there will always be a place about an inch long that you can see the line. Every now and then you also get what seems to be little gaps (0.5mm in size) appear near the line. I use the Evostick PVA (green bottle, red lid) and have been recommended Cascamite/Extramite, any thoughts?

 

[MIGNAL]

Hot hide glue is known for giving thin glue lines - providing the fit is good enough. it's also plenty strong enough but there is a learning curve to using it. It's open time is short but there are methods to extend that open time. You don't need the fancy double boiler either, I just use an old baby bottle warmer.
0.5 mm sounds a bit big to be just the fault of the glue though. You might like to check your fit and clamping method. Any water based glue is likely to raise the grain and alter the initial fit (however slight) - especially if there is any end grain involved. On some joints I have to size the wood with Hide (that raises the grain) and then very carefully file or sand back. Sometimes that has to be done 2 or 3 times before gluing the joint itself.
Having said that I can't see the big manufacturers doing that.

 

[frugal]

Welcome to the Group!

As far as the glue line is concerned, do you mean that it is "raised" so that it can be felt or that it is "visible" in contrast to the wood? Or both?

Its visible in the wood. It wont be around the whole area. 9 times out of 10, 90% of the piece has no visible line. But there will always be a place about an inch long that you can see the line. Every now and then you also get what seems to be little gaps (0.5mm in size) appear near the line. I use the Evostick PVA (green bottle, red lid) and have been recommended Cascamite/Extramite, any thoughts?

If you are getting 0.5mm gaps in the joint where the wood is showing then I am afraid that the only thing you can do is plane the edges smoother before fitting so that they are both perfectly flat and there are no bumps or dips.

The other thing is lots of clamps. A bowyer I know uses 30 clamps when he clamps up a longbow for laminating (for a 6' long longbow).

 

[yetloh]

I certainly agree that, if you are getting significant gaps or visible glue lines you either have surfaces which do match up properly or you have inadequate clamping. You can check on both of these by doing a dry run without glue to see if everything goes together properly. If not, you can disassemble it and make adjustments.

Cascamite/Extramite are no longer available under those names but the same product is available as Polymite from Axminster or (more cheaply) as Resinmite from AG Woodcare who are very good to deal with. It is an excellent and underrated glue with the great virtue of a long open time - up to half an hour depending on ambient temperature.

I am also a fan of hide glue. Heat the work with a hot air gun to to extend the open time. The great virtue of hide glue is that it is reversible with water and heat, so mistakes are retieveable. It will also stick to itself, unlike PVA and its relations, so you don't need to get rid of every last trace of the old glue before re-gluing if you have to take a joint apart.

I agree epoxy is the best choice for wood to metal joints.

Jim

 

[totlxtc]

Ok i must own up. I had a word with a antique restoration company up the road from me who have helped me a great deal. Ive been using the one hand "quick clamps". These were probaly my culprits as i was so sure the splice sections were alway flat. As my old boss used to say "Preparation is 90% of each job". So i have run out and got some proper G-clamps and will report back over the weekend to see if that resolves the problem.

PS: I have been using 4 clamps over a 12" area. Would you recommend more?

 

[yetloh]

Full clamping effect radiates at 45 degrees from the points of contact on the clamp so more would do no harm, but you can increase the effective clamping range by adding blocks between the work and either side of the clamps, thus your 45 degree angle will take in a wider glued area.

Jim

 

[dchallender]

On another topic is your lathe an old Southbend? - It looks like the first one I owned when I first started model engineering - I never thought of making a pool cue on :shock:

Darren

 

[totlxtc]

On another topic is your lathe an old Southbend? - It looks like the first one I owned when I first started model engineering - I never thought of making a pool cue on :shock:

Darren

No its an old 1940's Acorntools (Atlas) lathe. Not many about with the bed length i need. On another note too, the join im fitting has a M12 thread on the female and M9 on the male. Would it be best to thread the butt and shaft? If so what tool do i need?

 

[woodbloke]

Ok i must own up. I had a word with a antique restoration company up the road from me who have helped me a great deal. Ive been using the one hand "quick clamps". These were probaly my culprits as i was so sure the splice sections were alway flat. As my old boss used to say "Preparation is 90% of each job". So i have run out and got some proper G-clamps and will report back over the weekend to see if that resolves the problem.

PS: I have been using 4 clamps over a 12" area. Would you recommend more?

More clamps, or cramps, is probably your answer. If you've been using those 'quick' cramps they won't give enough pressure to the joint to ensure that a glue line is minimised. They're good for just holding stuff down say, to a bench surface but not for a proper glue up situation - Rob