Have I picked the wrong hobby?

[Garno]

Spent a lot of today in my shed practising.

The two things I have been practising are
1) Cutting a piece of wood straight
2) Doing some Dovetail joints by hand

All sounds simple and no doubt to 99.9% of you it is, but for me it seems to be a totally unreachable task.
My dovetails end up like a mouth full of loose teeth and my straight line cuts resemble a drawing of a grand prix circuit.
I have tried chiseling out the dovetails to get them looking right and I sand the edge of wood to get a straight edge
I have tried different saws, I stand in different places when cutting. Oh and the ends seem to break off on my dovetails.

I really do not want to give it up as a hobby but feel I may have to before long.
I have seen a router bit for dovetails but have absolutely no idea how it would work or even if it would work, the bit may just be called dovetail for all I know. Very despondant at the moment but will see what tomorrow brings

 

[MikeG.]

Garno, seriously, get yourself alongside another woodworker for an afternoon. I mean, once restrictions are lifted of course. If you were closer you would be welcome to hang around in my workshop cutting some joints. You can teach yourself, but it takes for ever to realise that this or that isn't going the way it should. A few minutes in company with someone who knows what is what will enable you to quickly focus in on the issues. Seeing someone else do something and then copying them can save hours of frustration.

The one great thing about persevering when you're not as good as you want to be is that you very quickly learn a hugely important lesson: there are dozens of ways of skinning most woodworking cats. Saw not working?.....will a chisel be easier? Plane not working.......can I pare it? Keep going, keep trying. The rewards are great, but this isn't a completely straightforward hobby. But most of all, find a local woodworking buddy and get a little help.

 

[D_W]

The first part of the learning curve is always the steepest. Try to solve one problem each session - much of what you're doing is a combination of experience and neural development and both will carry over elsewhere (e.g., sawing ends up being sawing in most cases - once you can saw dovetails and rough board sawing to a line, then all of the sudden, sawing tenons isn't very difficult, and resawing then becomes - not so difficult).

lots of little details need to come together for everything to work right, but once you knock them off one by one, they become the easiest way to work (it won't be hard) - nothing else will feel right.

I've learned in isolation, so I don't have a good feel for others' best way of learning, but mike's advice is good if you can find someone who is competent with hand tools (not just someone who has used them), as they'll be able to give you a heads up if there is something physical with your tools that's holding you back (e.g., does a saw need to be set up differently, is it sharp, are you working with stock that's just genuinely going to give you fits no matter the level).

 

[Blackswanwood]

Mike’s suggestion is a good one and is an approach that has helped me. Often it’s just a slight adjustment that is needed to make a big leap forward. You’ll either uncover it by watching and copying someone else or having them watch you and give you a nudge (not literally of course!)

You can obviously page through YouTube for demonstrations but sorting the wheat from the chaff can be a challenge.

A really good source of learning imho are the videos on Richard Maguire's website (The English Woodworker). From memory you pay £24ish quid and he takes you through a project in 6 or so videos. The Spoon Rack one is a good place to start and includes dovetails.

I really like his no nonsense style of explaining things. He won’t be everyone’s cup of tea but I am a fan.

If you are going to have another run at it tomorrow start by going back to the basics. Is the wood you are working with square and flat? Are you marking out methodically and consistently from the face edge? Are you clear in your mind about the order you will do things? Write down the steps you will take and take your time. Relax, take your time and you will probably find the results will be better than today.

 

[Andy Kev.]

Garno,

have a look at Derek Cohen's blue tape method for cutting dovetails.

 

[mbartlett99]

Perhaps you're setting the bar too high? Maybe start by getting a 2 x 4 and cross cutting to the line (mark, kknife, chisel then saw).

Also you may be assuming everyone else can do these things flawlessly. For myself I manage to cut long panels well about 1 in 3 times - just not something I do very often. Dovetails are not easy no matter how many times you watch Rob Cosman bang it out. It really does just come down to practice.

One thing I remember from my fencing (sport) days was the national coach taking videos of us - suddenly his comments made more sense after you've seen yourself making a prat of yourself.

 

[Trevanion]

How much experience do you have of other joints, Garno?

I'd personally never start someone on dovetails right from the outset with the exception of maybe a halving dovetail, straight after a regular halving joint.

 

[Garno]

MikeG
I think you have offered some wonderful advice and after everything settles down in the world I will look around for someone willing to show me how to do it and give that nudge when needed.

D_W
That is an amazing example of sawing a straight line, One day I hope to emulate that :shock:

Blackswanwood,
I will be giving it another go tomorrow but I will also look up The English Woodworker, thank you for the headsup.

Andy Kev
Thank you for your post I will also have a look at that

 

[Garno]

MBartlet99
I feel a little better after your post thank you

Trevanion
I actually have zero experience of any other joints, I always thought that dovetails was the beginners choice, saying that I really need to start looking up different types

 

[MikeG.]

Start with a halving joint and then a mortice & tenon. There's lots of ways of doing both of them well, and you'll pick up some good skills and experience along the way. There's too many moving parts* with dovetails, so it can be difficult to know which bit you stuffed up when they don't work well. Also, you can get 9 out of ten bits right and it still won't work. With halving joints and M&Ts it is quickly obvious what went wrong, and pretty easy to adjust.....and yet the same skills (marking accurately, sawing and chiseling) are involved.

*Figure of speech......not literal.

 

[Trevanion]

Ah, well there's your problem Garno! :lol:

Personally, if I were to be teaching someone the absolute basics of wood joinery I'd get them to do the same as I did in college, do a few practice joints to get the basics nailed down and get them to have a go at making the frame below to a high standard. Of course, the tolerance for a pass in college was ridiculously lenient so there wasn't too much timber wastage (If I recall it was something like 2 or 3mm gap, 1mm gap was a distinction grade :shock and it would be screwed together to stop it falling apart, but I see no reason why you couldn't do it or even just the separate joints without making the frame to a good standard with a bit of advice from everyone here.

 

[Nigel Burden]

I am doing it on my own, and I can say it takes time. I have made some small dovetailed boxes and they are improving, but I am by no means consistent, I still get the odd gap.

As far as sawing is concerned, I found that practicing cutting (ripping) on scrap wood following lines squared on the wood helped a lot. Another thing I found was to hold the saw lightly, let the weight of the saw do the cutting, and don't rush. If you have marked lines squarely on both sides of the wood you can check your accuracy. Shannon Rogers the Renaissance Woodworker, has some tips on sawing, eg. the correct stance etc.

https://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/r ... nd-sawing/

Nigel.

 

[Ttrees]

You mentioned sanding the edge, which would make one think you don't have any hand planes, or a machine to do the job.
If you don't have any, then I suggest getting some planes.
It will make your work precise, and any other issues that you might have a problem with, will be apparent what is going on, and ramp up your overall skills much more than any other tool can.

Definitely agree with Mike on this one about finding someone close to you.

If you can't visit someone's workshop then watching some of these guys might be the next best thing.
I suggest watching David Charlesworth for an introduction of planing technique
Phil Lowe for his overall stuff
and Rob Cosman's older video's ...without the gadgetry and purpleheart veteran therapy stuff
for some other things or tips to pick up.
I assume you watch other mainstream folks, that you may prefer
But if you wish to learn you will watch all you can.
Many won't agree, nor do I with everything everyone does like using waterstones, fancy chisels or having more tools that you need etc
These videos are a bit of both.... an introduction, and an demonstration.
You wont achieve much by buying a fancy set of Lie-Nielson chisels starting out, you could do the same with a cheaper chisel by buying a bench grinder to profile a cheapie chisel for the same money.
Yes you can pick up a good cast Sheffield one at a boot fair, Just making an example folks.

That's what this forum is very useful for, doing with what you have if suitable,
and equipping yourself with the best choice for tools that you might need, at the cheapest cost
if that's important.

Just going to say it again, working with hand planes is what I've found the most beneficial
in projecting my skills much more than anything else.
I wouldn't have believed so.

Shout out to Steve with that reference on the bandsaw video 8)
I was like ...who's this Rob Cosman fellow

 

[Robbo3]

Garno, you are not alone. I can't even make a tidy halving joint by hand as proved when I constructed a frame for a model railway layout for a neighbour with no tools.
16 halving joints & not one was accurate.
Funnily enough, I have made a set of passable through dovetails (in softwood) by hand.
That's why I took up wood turning.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Ah, well there's your problem Garno! :lol:

Personally, if I were to be teaching someone the absolute basics of wood joinery I'd get them to do the same as I did in college, do a few practice joints to get the basics nailed down and get them to have a go at making the frame below to a high standard. Of course, the tolerance for a pass in college was ridiculously lenient so there wasn't too much timber wastage (If I recall it was something like 2 or 3mm gap, 1mm gap was a distinction grade :shock and it would be screwed together to stop it falling apart, but I see no reason why you couldn't do it or even just the separate joints without making the frame to a good standard with a bit of advice from everyone here.

I've just bookmarked that! Thank you.

@Garno: I approach all this slightly differently: I want to make good, accurate stuff - how I get there is less important, hence the reliance on machinery. If it was easy, they wouldn't have made a machine to do it for you. The fact that so many different machine-based solutions for dovetails exists suggests that it is not simple - people cut them using a table saw, which is just madness, and on my list of things to try out.

A musician would expect to practice for hours a day, for years, to be considered good enough. In woodworking terms I am still struggling to master chopsticks. Whilst I am aware of Rachmaninoff's Third, it is never going to be something I attempt, and I'm comfortable with that. Not sure where dovetails come in the order of difficulty, but somewhere between the two, I suspect, and further along from chopsticks than you might expect.

 

[Andy Kev.]

Garno,

people have made good internet recommendations. What helped me enormously was some of the paying projects on the English Woodworker website:

https://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/premium-videos/

The spoon rack one really helped me. There's also a Christopher Schwarz DVD called the Shaker Side Table which you can get from Classic Hand Tools. Both are good in that they provide you with very specific tasking and also show you how to achieve it. I found it to be well-invested money, particularly the spoon rack one. (I failed hopelessly with my first attempt and got it with the second.)

 

[AndyT]

Four things that have helped me.
1 Get some easy wood, not spruce or anything with very distinct hard and soft layers.

2. Make some sort of clamping arrangement to bring the work up to a comfortable height where you can see it. This is especially important if you are not as young as you were. It doesn't have to be a special Moxon. Some blocks and clamps will do.

3 When sawing, start by laying the saw in line with the line on the end of the work. Lift the handle very slightly and define the cut all the way through. Then without changing grip or stance, lower the handle so the saw follows down the line on the side of the work. Look at the whole breadth of the saw blade and check it's in line. Let the toe of the saw drop til it's horizontal and go nearly all the way down to the baseline.

4. Practise. Your first few probably won't be great but make some every day and you'll get it.

 

[AJB Temple]

Take heart: I have been doing woodwork for 30 years and I am still error prone. This last weekend I was making 6 legs for a kitchen Island. Basically it's a very big table. I carefully marked and numbered each leg and showed the positions of the rails on the top and bottom (they are big 6 inch legs in oak). It was really clear. This did not stop me cutting an extra mortise hole in the face of one corner leg (as if it was a middle leg). #-o

I couldn't believe I had done it when I sorted the legs out for assembly. So embarrassing. So now I can pretend it was deliberate and fit an electrical socket there, or make a new leg. I will be making a new leg. (hammer) We all struggle at times.

Keep at it.

 

[Garno]

I would like to say thank you for all of the great replies I have had and it is reassuring to know others also make mistakes.

A special thanks to Trevanion for taking the time to put together that great post, as well as the poster who has bookmarked it I will be doing the same.

Today I will try some halving joints and practice some more (using the technique given by Andy T) sawing in a straight line.

 

[AES]

@Garno: I am definitely NOT anywhere near as experienced as other posters on this Forum. In fact the only experience I have of "real" woodwork was at school (I Left in 1960)! But somehow I enjoy "mucking abart" with wood, especially when I can see in my mind's eye the finished product (which, FYI, has so far NEVER turned out to be as good as I saw in my mind)

Oh yeah, mistakes? Too many to count mate!

BUT, I still enjoy it, and I suggest that if you do too, then it's NOT the wrong hobby for you - "frustrating?", YES; and "disappointing sometimes?", definitely! But FWIW I believe if you're still enjoying yourself and fancy having another go next time, then you're in the right place.

I shall definitely NOT attempt to give you any advice, BUT I will comment that when at school, our woodwork teacher (Mr. Johnson - I still remember him with affection) was not only very encouraging to anyone who showed any interest or even the slightest ability, but was also very careful to ensure that we didn't bite off more than we could chew. So for example, after basic cutting and planning, for joints he started us off with simple halving joints (explaining how to get at least some accuracy) which then eventually morphed into M&Ts (ditto re the accuracy). We never got as far as dovetails, and I must say that up until today, I've never even tried to cut a dovetail -been tempted to "just have a go" sure, but actually tried? I'm still leaving that for "one fine wet day"!

I note in your last post that you're now having a go at halving joints and would respectfully suggest that you're now going the right road.

Good luck mate.