Have I overdone the secondary bevel on this chisel?

[hughcollier]

I've read through as many of the sharpening threads as I can over the last couple of days so I will keep this very specific as I know there is a wealth of general information on here already on this topic but I'd like to ask people's opinions on what size I should be making the secondary bevel when sharpening my chisels.

The primary bevel above is ground to 25° and the secondary bevel at 30°. I got a bit caught out by how quickly the 30° bevel appeared and wondered if I'd overdone it? It's 3mm in width but looks quite large relative to the primary bevel.

The chisel is certainly very very sharp which I guess is half the battle but I wondered if there was an optimum in terms of keeping an edge for longer.

Thanks in advance for your input and apologies if yet another sharpening thread will irk some - I know there have been loads already!

 

[Adam W.]

Does it cut wood ?

 

[hughcollier]

Does it cut wood ?

It does, very well it would seem!

I take your point though, that's the only thing that matters, right.

It's very easy to overthink these things when you are inexperienced and there is so much information out there and all the various "systems".

 

[Adam W.]

Yes, there's lots of different opinions, but if you can pare softwood endgrain with it you're on the right track.

 

[mikej460]

+1 for the above but it's worth bearing in mind how much extra sharpening and honing you may need to do to maintain the edge, but then if you follow Paul Seller's advice he doesn't use secondary bevels at all. I'm going to try this technique on my new Narex Richter chisels.
Preparing and sharpening a woodworking chisel | Paul Sellers - YouTube

 

[pe2dave]

Yes, you're wasting steel. That's all.

 

[Adam W.]

I've always wondered what the fuss about secondary bevels was, but I think it's down to people changing bevel angle when switching between woods like oak and pine and if you have one set of all purpose chisels, it's easy to get rid of the steeper bit when you want to.

It's just now become mixed up with all the pseudo science which surrounds woodworking tools these days and I wouldn't sweat about it.

 

[Jacob]

Forget about jigs and primary/secondary/micro bevels this is just modern sharpening gadgetry & jargon.
Paul Sellers does it the trad way, except for using 3 expensive diamond stones - 2 cheapo Nortons will do just as well.

Knife sharpeners are even worse!

 

[Jacob]

+1 for the above but it's worth bearing in mind how much extra sharpening and honing you may need to do to maintain the edge, but then if you follow Paul Seller's advice he doesn't use secondary bevels at all. I'm going to try this technique on my new Narex Richter chisels.
Preparing and sharpening a woodworking chisel | Paul Sellers - YouTube

Sellers gets a bit fussy about new chisels. He's been slightly infected by modern sharpening nonsense and calls it "initialising".
In fact new chisels just need 20 seconds at 30º on a fine stone. They are never easier to sharpen than when brand new. Ignore all the nonsense about flattening - the slightly concave face helps sharpening and is best left as found, as long as possible.

 

[mikej460]

Sellers gets a bit fussy about new chisels. He's been slightly infected by modern sharpening nonsense and calls it "initialising".
In fact new chisels just need 20 seconds at 30º on a fine stone. They are never easier to sharpen than when brand new. Ignore all the nonsense about flattening - the slightly concave face helps sharpening and is best left as found, as long as possible.

I agree with the back flattening but I've never tried using just a primary bevel. Although impressed by the sharpness he can achieve in very little time I am concerned that every subsequent re-sharpen will take off more metal than the secondary bevel method. Anyway I can almost hear the groans from members as this subject rears its head again...

 

[Jacob]

I agree with the back flattening but I've never tried using just a primary bevel. Although impressed by the sharpness he can achieve in very little time I am concerned that every subsequent re-sharpen will take off more metal than the secondary bevel method. Anyway I can almost hear the groans from members as this subject rears its head again...

Easier if you forget "primary" bevel it's just one slightly rounded bevel which does primary/secondary/tertiary in one move, by dipping slightly as you go. You start the stroke at 30 and finish slightly lower. Then same again on a finer stone, then turn over and take off the burr or wire edge. It's the same every time nothing gets progressively longer, though you might take longer to bring up a burr if it's very blunt to start with.
Trouble with modern fantasy sharpening it's got so technical and confused that it becomes difficult to explain how to do things simply!
If the thing is really knackered then there's nothing wrong with speeding it up with the grindstone, but then continue the same, as above, remembering that the only bit of the bevel which matters is the cutting edge, doesn't matter what the rest of the bevel looks like.

 

[hughcollier]

Yes, there's lots of different opinions, but if you can pare softwood endgrain with it you're on the right track.

That seems like a good test of sharpness and it's definitely doing that.

Forget about jigs and primary/secondary/micro bevels this is just modern sharpening gadgetry & jargon.
Paul Sellers does it the trad way, except for using 3 expensive diamond stones - 2 cheapo Nortons will do just as well.

Knife sharpeners are even worse!

I think my takeaway from this thread will be that if it cuts well and is sharp then it's right. As you say, there is so much sharpening gadgetry & jargon out there it's so easy to feel like you are doing it wrong.

+1 for the above but it's worth bearing in mind how much extra sharpening and honing you may need to do to maintain the edge, but then if you follow Paul Seller's advice he doesn't use secondary bevels at all. I'm going to try this technique on my new Narex Richter chisels.
Preparing and sharpening a woodworking chisel | Paul Sellers - YouTube

While I can totally see this is where you'd end up when doing lots of sharpening, as someone who only tackles the task infrequently (I know I should be touching the edge up as it dulls but I have a bat habit of letting it go way too far before resharpening), I just know I wouldn't build up the required muscle memory and would make a total pigs ear of things doing it this way.

Exactly the same thing used to happen with my kitchen knives until I started using super simple edge guides to maintain a consistent angle.

Yes, you're wasting steel. That's all.

Thanks. Yes I understand that now after watching this video which explains the principles behind the primary/secondary bevel approach in a really visual and easy to understand way.

I agree with the back flattening but I've never tried using just a primary bevel. Although impressed by the sharpness he can achieve in very little time I am concerned that every subsequent re-sharpen will take off more metal than the secondary bevel method. Anyway I can almost hear the groans from members as this subject rears its head again...

I'm sorry if I've opened a can of worms. I suppose it is indicative of how contradictory a lot of the information regarding sharpening on the internet is that people feel the need to clarify so often. Another possible reason is that a lot of that information is presented in a "this is the only right way to do it" kind of way, rather than a more user friendly "this is how I do it but you do what works for you" sort of way.

Anyway, thanks for the input everyone, I have learned a lot.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

I've read through as many of the sharpening threads as I can over the last couple of days so I will keep this very specific as I know there is a wealth of general information on here already on this topic but I'd like to ask people's opinions on what size I should be making the secondary bevel when sharpening my chisels.

View attachment 112349

The primary bevel above is ground to 25° and the secondary bevel at 30°. I got a bit caught out by how quickly the 30° bevel appeared and wondered if I'd overdone it? It's 3mm in width but looks quite large relative to the primary bevel.

The chisel is certainly very very sharp which I guess is half the battle but I wondered if there was an optimum in terms of keeping an edge for longer.

Thanks in advance for your input and apologies if yet another sharpening thread will irk some - I know there have been loads already!

With a secondary bevel that wide I would have sharpened it quite a few times and would be sharpening the main bevel at the next sharpening. I aim for the secondary bevel to start at about 0.5mm width.
At the length you have it it’s virtually a primary grind.
Is it a problem? No not at all.
Is it the optimal starting width? No
If you like it keep using it.

 

[Jacob]

..... I just know I wouldn't build up the required muscle memory and would make a total pigs ear of things doing it this way.
.....

This is one of the modern sharpening myths. It takes about 10 minutes of practice if you've never freehanded before.
It's not about "the right way" to do it, it's about the quickest and easiest way.
It can look too easy, a bit messy and casual which is probably why there's such an OCDC thing about it in some quarters.

 

[Argus]

Wot he said.

Memorising an angle and transferring it to your hands is not difficult and becomes second-nature in a short time.

It can help, at the start, to have a piece of wood, say 6 inches long, cut at the required angle beside your stone or plate as a reference to and keep an eye (and your hand angle), on this until you find you're not looking at it anymore..... at this stage you have the angle in your reflexes and you can concentrate on keeping the edge about square.

 

[Jacob]

Wot he said.

Memorising an angle and transferring it to your hands is not difficult and becomes second-nature in a short time.

....

Exactly. And in any case woodworkers are doing much more difficult things visually all the time as part of the normal work. Getting a within a stab of 30º is beginners' stuff! Doesn't need to be spot on either.

 

[thetyreman]

it'd be less time consuming to just do it freehand and put in a concave curve on the edge, I aim for 30 degrees, and use diamond stones, yes they aren't cheap but I've had mine 5 years, use them almost every day and they are all still dead flat.

 

[planesleuth]

The only way that 'is the right way' is the best way for the work you do. No youtube video will show you the right way. Your chisel is your tool and by definition it is your aid for the work you do. Sharpen your chisels accordingly. My chisels are all of varying degrees applicable to the last batch of timber I processed. In the main they are ground to about 20 degrees on a single bevel and the leading edge is skewed between 0 and 20 degrees. You needed to be apprenticed to truly no what you should do. Builders, that hit their chisels with steel hammers, have secondary bevels and a lot of what Paul Sellers does isn't correct. He ain't a God. He makes money from selling general information!

 

[Jacob]

The only way that 'is the right way' is the best way for the work you do. No youtube video will show you the right way. Your chisel is your tool and by definition it is your aid for the work you do. Sharpen your chisels accordingly. My chisels are all of varying degrees applicable to the last batch of timber I processed. In the main they are ground to about 20 degrees on a single bevel and the leading edge is skewed between 0 and 20 degrees.

20º very difficult to grind. Why do you need these very unusual angles, skews etc?

You needed to be apprenticed to truly no what you should do.

Depends who you are apprenticed to!

Builders, that hit their chisels with steel hammers, have secondary bevels

Some might, many wouldn't, because if you are not bothered it's faster and easier to just do a rounded bevel. You don't have time to f about with jigs, glass plates etc if you are on a building site In fact you'd probably get laughed off.

and a lot of what Paul Sellers does isn't correct.

I thought you said there was no right way? What is "correct"?

He ain't a God. He makes money from selling general information!

He ain't god but he is fairly practical - and he doesn't promote all the expensive sharpening gear and accessories that many of the others do. Even he gets a bit side tracked by modern sharpening nonsense and burbles on a bout "initialising" chisels. I wonder if he christens them too?

 

[stuart little]

I have some Japanese chisels which have virtually no secondary bevel, but, boy are they sharp & will cut paper on edge out of the box.