Hardwood waste for pricing joinery

[Harry Hare]

Hello,
I am pricing some hardwood gates in Accoya and also in Sapele, and wanted to know what waste joiners allow for. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

 

[Doug71]

You are probably best giving your timber supplier a cutting list and asking them how much will this cost.

Accoya is great as it comes in standard sizes but Sapele is normally random widths which makes wastage more of a guess.

 

[Ollie78]

20% from rough sawn

 

[johnnyb]

People love accoya as it skips that sawing and straightening huge chunks of heavy hardwood stage. This alone can save hours on a build.

 

[HOJ]

I would be talking to the supplier as to what they hold in stock sizes and quantity, pricing Accoya isn't that easy as it comes, as @Doug71 said, in
section sizes but also in given lengths, so that needs to factored in. I recently priced an Accoya job based on my cutting list needs, but then got a lump sum price for the the available sizes, the difference in the cost was up by 41%.

 

[johnnyb]

I never ask for a bulk price as they will give you loads to much resulting in waste galore. As much as a whole plank to much just to make sure.

 

[johnnyb]

Lump not bulk sorry.

 

[Spectric]

You can minimise the waste by careful planing and trying to ensure any waste has a future use by having a decent cut list.

 

[Harry Hare]

I would be talking to the supplier as to what they hold in stock sizes and quantity, pricing Accoya isn't that easy as it comes, as @Doug71 said, in
section sizes but also in given lengths, so that needs to factored in. I recently priced an Accoya job based on my cutting list needs, but then got a lump sum price for the the available sizes, the difference in the cost was up by 41%.

Thanks that is v useful to know

 

[HOJ]

I never ask for a bulk price as they will give you loads to much resulting in waste galore. As much as a whole plank to much just to make sure.

I only order what I need, I said lump £ sum, but I worked that out, based on their prices per/m and stock availability at the time.

For instance, I needed 13 off 63x100 @ 1.6M long, the only viable length to buy it in was 3.6M, so instantly wasting 0.4M @ £18.00/M so about £7.00's worth on every length, as a percentage though it dosen't look too bad @ <13%...

 

[niall Y]

An old rule of thumb when buying sawn hardwood stock in cubic feet ,( for say a kitchen), was to buy a third more. It will come in random widths as 4 inches and up or 6 inches and up. The maximum of the 'up' is around 10 inches. With waney edge boards it is best to purchase at least half as much again.

With planed stock, cut to just over the lengths you need. Then you can risk buying exactly what you want, But, it is advisable to have an additional long board, just to get you out of trouble in case of mishap or lack of straightness.

It is also best to order longer boards to cut your short components out of. That way the less than straight boards can be cut up to use for the shorter pieces, where any bend or twist will be less of a problem.

 

[johnnyb]

Very stressful making something with just enough. Can be done and it does focus the mind!

 

[Ollie78]

People love accoya as it skips that sawing and straightening huge chunks of heavy hardwood stage. This alone can save hours on a build.

Yes, but is it worth the price and the vineger smell ?
Been testing out Abodo a bit. It smells burnt instead and is not as hard but very much cheaper than Accoya. From a distance it looks like black walnut...

 

[johnnyb]

I don't use accoya personally. It's stupid expensive. I went to Wiltshire walking 2 weeks ago and marvelled at the villages with every house having timber windows and house prices around 500000. I'll try adobo(surely a catchier name is in its future) as I've got a greenhouse to make.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Yes, but is it worth the price and the vineger smell ?
Been testing out Abodo a bit. It smells burnt instead and is not as hard but very much cheaper than Accoya. From a distance it looks like black walnut...

It smells burnt because it, of course, is a product of a high heat treatment of timber, commonly pine or fir, but also hardwoods, to impart various characteristics such as colour change, reduced movement in response to changes in moisture content, but the big characteristic is improved durability in non-ground contact situations. A result of the treatment, particularly that for durability which requires high temperature (~230 deg C for extended periods) includes brittleness amongst other lesser inconveniences or disadvantages.

I've used high heat treated birch for furniture and brittleness wasn't a problem because the treatment was primarily undertaken for colour change, so the temperature used was lower and for less time, but my understanding is that material treated to impart durability characteristics (high heat, extended periods) should be evaluated carefully because of the resultant brittleness for situations where strength is important. Slainte.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Hello,
I am pricing some hardwood gates in Accoya and also in Sapele, and wanted to know what waste joiners allow for. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

Forgot to answer this earlier, but:

For rough sawn stock I calculate the the rough sawn board requirement that will yield the finished dimensions. For example, ten pieces at a finished size of 800 mm X 44 X 18 (31-1/2" X 1- 3/4" X 3/4") will come out of ten pieces of rough timber 36” X 2” X 1” = ~0.42 cubic feet. Add an additional waste factor even though you've calculated using fairly generous board sizes, so for waney edged English oak use an additional waste factor of 100%, so calculate 0.42 ft³ X2 = 0.84 ft³. Typical waste factors for rough sawn square edged boards are 50% for walnut and 30% for cherry, and 20% for poplar, ash, beech, etc: sapele generally fits within the ~20% extra category because there tends to be not a great deal of waste.

Accoya, as others have said comes in pre-machined sizes of length, width and thickness so it's essentially just a case of working out what standard width and thickness you can work with and what you can get out of the standard lengths available. Typical standard lengths range from 2.4 m up to 4.8 m long. What's available between 2.4 and 4.8 m length depends upon your supplier. Slainte.

 

[Chief Sawdust Maker]

An accurate cutting list is key
Talk to the supplier to get an idea of the sizes available including lengths
Break down the item you are making into its component parts, I have used graph paper in the past to visualise how I will lay my planks out
A slightly different example is how i build decking, I have built a large number of decks for many customers over the last 25 years some being repeats customers who have moved house or had a major garden make over
example look at the length of a required joist look at the standard or stock available lengths, it may not be best to but the closest length possiable but may work out better to buy longer so as you can the start to use the offcuts for the nogins or boxing round drain covers etc.
It is also worth looking at the overall dimensions of the finshed item.
On a number of occasions I have saved customers hundreds of pounds by altering the size of the deck slightly, granted it might not work for your gates but just a squeeze or stretch of a dimension can have a big impact of the total amount of timber required

Good Luck

 

[Ollie78]

It smells burnt because it, of course, is a product of a high heat treatment of timber, commonly pine or fir, but also hardwoods, to impart various characteristics such as colour change, reduced brittleness and movement in response to changes in moisture content, but the big characteristic is improved durability in non-ground contact situations. A result of the treatment, particularly that for durability which requires high temperature (~230 deg C for extended periods) includes brittleness amongst other lesser inconveniences or disadvantages.

I've used high heat treated birch for furniture and brittleness wasn't a problem because the treatment was primarily undertaken for colour change, so the temperature used was lower and for less time, but my understanding is that material treated to impart durability characteristics (high heat, extended periods) should be evaluated carefully because of the resultant brittleness for situations where strength is important. Slainte.

I have found the Abodo to machine well on the planer thicknesser and spindle/ router. It produces a nice crisp moulding.
It is noticably soft and makes a static dust similar to Accoya ( presumably due to its extreme dryness ) so care must be taken if sanding it and chisels and hand planes need to be sharp. I would not call it brittle. There has been some movement in the boards after planing to size but nothing excessive.
If it lives up to its durability claim then it should be a good alternative to Accoya at a sensible price.

The Accoya I have previously purchased has just been normal square edged sawn which is how I buy Utile/ Sapele anyway. The only difference being sometimes the other timbers come in much wider boards rather than the standard 150mm of the Accoya. There is not much labour saving in this regard.

Ollie

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I would not call it brittle. There has been some movement in the boards after planing to size but nothing excessive.
If it lives up to its durability claim then it should be a good alternative to Accoya at a sensible price.

I don't doubt your experience in finding that the material doesn't seem to be brittle. I'd guess it's possible, perhaps likely, that the processed material you're working with is actually relatively brittle compared to examples of the same wood species that haven't been put through the high heat treatment. Just something to consider because brittleness is a well documented side effect of the high heat treatment meaning consideration is needed where strength might be an issue. Slainte.

 

[Ollie78]

I don't doubt your experience in finding that the material doesn't seem to be brittle. I'd guess it's possible, perhaps likely, that the processed material you're working with is actually relatively brittle compared to examples of the same wood species that haven't been put through the high heat treatment. Just something to consider because brittleness is a well documented side effect of the high heat treatment meaning consideration is needed where strength might be an issue. Slainte.

It is true I do not have a bit of regular radiata pine to compare it with. In comparison to the Accoya it is very much lighter but less brittle. Also it is planable with a normally set plane whereas Accoya can be a nightmare to hand plane.