Hard wood

[filsgreen]

Hi everyone

What are your thoughts on using hard wood? Do you think it is too expensive or are you just resigned to paying the price? I'm a little apprehensive of using it as mistakes can be costly. Reading through the posts member mention Ash and Oak, bearing in mind the cheapest hardwood I can find in Liverpool is 72p a foot of 3x1, what is the cost of Ash and Oak? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Phil

 

[Gill]

My thoughts are that you tend to get what you pay for. The price of any wood will vary according to its quality. You might like to browse the links in the list of timber merchants that Chas has compiled in order to get an idea of costs.

Of course, there are many woodworkers who never touch hardwoods and produce items that are very high quality. To my mind, though, it's a bit like being in a sweet shop and only buying sherbert dips when there are all sorts of other goodies waiting to be tasted.

 

[Scrit]

What are your thoughts on using hard wood? Do you think it is too expensive or are you just resigned to paying the price? I'm a little apprehensive of using it as mistakes can be costly.

Hardwoods will cost you from £15 or so + VAT per cubic foot (cube) to over £80 (recent quote on Burmese teak) whilst pine is is the £4 to £12 + VAT range, although recycled pitch pine and Quebec yellow pine can run in the mid toe high £20s. (Prices are for rough sawn)

Mistakes can be costly, but there is no more beautiful material to work than a figured hardwood. The cost, I'm afraid, goes with the territory. However there a number of cheaper hardwood you can hone your skills on before moving to more exotic stuff, for example beech and poplar are extensively used in chair production and can normally be had for £20/cube or less especially if you are prepared to accept 1/SE (1 square edge, 1 waney) or waney edged stock. Joinery ash is similarly not that expensive. Another possibility is to buy old hardwood urniture on flea markets, etc and didmember it to get your stash (that's what I did in the early days)

Reading through the posts member mention Ash and Oak, bearing in mind the cheapest hardwood I can find in Liverpool is 72p a foot of 3x1, what is the cost of Ash and Oak?

72p/foot of 3 x 1 works out to £29.40 + VAT per cube. If that is PAR then the price isn't so far off the mark I'm afraid. Going to R/S will drop the price, and if you're looking for a good hardwood supplier in Liverpool I'd recommend Ambrose McGrath Hardwoods Ltd, 6, Fulton St, Liverpool, Merseyside L5 9TG (Tel: 0151 298 9898) - they're off Regent Road quite near to the Stanley Dock bridge, but I don't know if they're open on Saturday mornimngs or not with them being a trade outlet.

As a point of comparison I have a quote on my desk at the moment for S/E (square edge) American cherry - £44.00 + VAT / cube - this is the same oprice as I was quoted by the same supplier in 1998. Plus ça change...

Scrit

 

[Colin C]

If you go dor Oak, go for American as it is much cheaper but it looks just the same

 

[LyNx]

American is cheaper but for white, red is slightly more. Nearly double for european but i won't say it looks the same.

Andy

 

[Adam]

Certainly it is expensive, but then so is your own time. If you are worried about mistakes, perhaps a few more projects on softwoods, before switching over? There are ways to pick up cheaper hardwood, some places do pallets of offcuts, you could try a local sawmill - certainly WL Wests (hardwood timber merchants) do a 'firewood' "fill a car boot for a tenner deal" and you often find odd pieces of hardwood that are pretty good. How about talking to a local cabinetmaker - see if he has a few offcuts?

Adam

 

[Colin C]

If you want something to start with, try tulip for most builders yards.
Its cheap and has been used in lots of furniture, also it can be stained or painted.
It will give you something to get started on that is not pine, has been stained to look like mahog or walnut for years ( lots victorian furniture was made from it )

 

[Anonymous]

I cannot add much to what has already been said other than to say that different hardwoods feel very different to work and I suggest a 'friendly' wood to start.

Ash is much easier to work that Oak for instance and Sycamore or Poplar are a sort of half-way house between these and pine as they are softer and plane/cut more easily.

I would buy a little Ash if you are confident that your skills are ready.

 

[Scrit]

If you want something to start with, try tulip for most builders yards.
Its cheap and has been used in lots of furniture, also it can be stained or painted.

FYI "tulip" is the generic trade name for American poplar. It sands slightly woolly and in my experience it stains rather inconsistently and is best dealt with by sealing then staining or finishing with a coloured lacquer/varnish. But it is strong, cheap and generally available. McGraths are a stockist

Scrit

 

[filsgreen]

Thanks everyone, at least I know where to go and what to look for

Phil

 

[tombo]

Phil,

i got lucky at ambrose the other week i phoned for a price on some Oak and was quoted around £50. But when i got there i asked to pick through their off-cut rack and got a nice chunk for £15 its go a bit of a twist in it and i would have rejected it had i been paying full price. But i was very happy as i can straighten it out on the planer and get more than what i need.

Tom

 

[Midnight]

what is the cost of Ash and Oak? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

donno about ash..... but oak is £17 / cube for t&t, £25 / cube for qs...

*** for thoughts about it... other than the occasional ply based project, I don't work with anything else... all locally grown and milled...

 

[Scrit]

what is the cost of Ash and Oak? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

donno about ash..... but oak is £17 / cube for t&t, £25 / cube for qs...

*** for thoughts about it... other than the occasional ply based project, I don't work with anything else... all locally grown and milled...

Really? Are you sure that isn't American and "B"-grade or unsorteds. Is that air dried and kiln finished to 9 to 11% RH? Are they decent length planks (oak s/be 14 to 16ft x 12in wide). I'd be very wary of English at that price as it's generally air dried at about 15 or 16% when it's so cheap. Finishing and transport costs make a lot of difference to the price - and there's not much oak in the North West of England

Scrit

 

[Colin C]

FYI "tulip" is the generic trade name for American poplar. It sands slightly woolly and in my experience it stains rather inconsistently and is best dealt with by sealing then staining or finishing with a coloured lacquer/varnish. But it is strong, cheap and generally available. McGraths are a stockist

Scrit[/quote]

Hi Scrit, what type of stain have you used because they are light fast spirit stains that would do the job very well.
It all so has to be sanded properly ( not saying you have not :shock: ), but its not then it will be patchy

 

[Scrit]

On commercial stuff I generally spray with Morrells light fast high pigmented stains as they can be mixed with other clear finishes I use. Problem is that in a commercial environment American yellow poplar is not always a happy wood as it does indeed finish a bit woolly looking when sanded and stains can sometimes end up not taking consistently - this isn't quality of sanding it's down to variable porousity between heartwood and sapwood I feel. There is a limit of about 180 grit that we can go to on a cheap wood like poplar - customers won't pay you to sand up to 320 grit y'know :wink: This difference is even more noticeable with English poplar where you may have to contend with green sapwood (which turns brown or even blackish in time - American contains a lot less sapwood and is more consistent in colour) The general trade solution is to seal the grain then apply a pigmented lacquer coating which saves having to worry about it all. Scratch commercially furniture and this is what you'll frequently find as we are trying to get poplar to look like mahogany a lot of the time!

Let's face it - poplar is really a joinery timber and doesn't compare to timbers like sycamore, maple or cherry. But then neither does the price! Oh yes, and the other plus is that the planks are up to 24in wide (sometimes wider). Makes it good for stacked bandsawing of chair components, etc.

BTW Morrells are a well known industrial finish suppliers

Scrit

 

[filsgreen]

Listen guys..... your comments are about a gizillion light years beyond me...could you please speak English? Right now I am getting my head around using Hardwood and you are extolling the virtues of... something that I don't understand! The important feature for me is the ability to make "something" out of wood, the cheaper the better. I'm sorry if this upsets the puritans of the MB, but unfortunately I can't afford it any other way I am trying though! Please help a newbie understand the principles of woodwork? :wink:

 

[Scrit]

Hi Phil

Fundamentally American yellow poplar = tulipwood. Poplar is a light, but very strong timber with very mild working characteristics, i.e. it doesn't blunt your tools too rapidly and can be planed and machined easily. When sanded it won't give you the greatest finish, as I said before, but it won't be too bad. It has the advantage of being relatively cheap against oak, ash, beech, etc. I'd say a good first step up from pine.

Does that suffice? :lol:

Scrit

 

[Colin C]

Listen guys..... your comments are about a gizillion light years beyond me...could you please speak English? Right now I am getting my head around using Hardwood and you are extolling the virtues of... something that I don't understand! The important feature for me is the ability to make "something" out of wood, the cheaper the better. I'm sorry if this upsets the puritans of the MB, but unfortunately I can't afford it any other way I am trying though! Please help a newbie understand the principles of woodwork? :wink:

With that said, start with softwood until you are completey happy with what you are doing. There is lots of good furniture made with it.
On a side line to Scrit, I do agree with about poplar can some times be a pain to get an consistent finnish with it. I am a maker and Antique restorer myself so I understand what some cumtomers can be like ](*,)

 

[Steve Maskery]

there's not much oak in the North West of England

I'm a bit surprised at this, Scrit. I visited the Lakes about this time last year, just after Applebee was flooded, and I found a small timberyard. Can't remember its name but it was next to a llama farm. Or was it a Yak farm? Some daft animal anyway. They had LOTS of oak blown down in the storms, some of it very nice pippy oak. If I'd had the space I'd have bought a stack there and then. Beautiful.

If you go for Oak, go for American as it is much cheaper but it looks just the same

Sorry Colin, but I couldn't disagree more. Either you have never used good oak, or you have never used bad oak. There is the world of difference between good English oak and generic American oak (and even that is not all bad, by any means). The colour, the figure, the texture is all better in "proper" oak.

One of the things that I find sad is the preponderance of "baltic" oak in a lot of modern, imported, cheap oak furniture. It's not all badly made either. So people think that the economic cost of making a dining table for 6 is £500. They don't appreciate that the wood is not the same and that Latvians can live to the same standard of living of everyone else they know on a dollar a day

I've long since come to the conclusion that we just have to bite the bullet and pay up, if we want the darn stuff, given that we, as a nation, have turned all our forests into shopping arcades and housing estates. Sorry, went to Meadowhall yesterday and haven't quite got over it yet.

It's late, I should be asleep.
G'night all.
S

 

[Colin C]

there's not much oak in the North West of England

If you go for Oak, go for American as it is much cheaper but it looks just the same

Sorry Colin, but I couldn't disagree more. Either you have never used good oak, or you have never used bad oak. There is the world of difference between good English oak and generic American oak (and even that is not all bad, by any means). The colour, the figure, the texture is all better in "proper" oak.

One of the things that I find sad is the pr in aeponderance of "baltic" oak
I've long since come to the conclusion that we just have to bite the bullet and pay up, if we want the darn stuff, given that we, as a nation, have turned all our forests into shopping arcades and housing estates. Sorry, went to Meadowhall yesterday and haven't quite got over it yet.

It's late, I should be asleep.
G'night all.
S

Hi Steve, When i said looks the same, most poeple will not tell the difference but yes given the chioce I would go for English oak every time.
I have used timbers like Satinwood,Rosewood and proper Tulip ( not what you get in builders merchants, I will try to find the name for it ) and lots more but for the novice it would be a very expensive mistake if got wronge
The Tulipwood I know is called Dalbergia frutescens
I have also used bad Engilsh and American oak