Hands Off the mag Good Woodworking ?

[Anonymous]

I am initially making this post here because although the detail may be tedious or seemingly petty, the principle is important

I have no objection to the mods moving it to general chat/off-topic if they wish providing the thread is linked from here.

As the subject includes the mag 'Good Woodworking' and 'Personal Censorship' I think it reasonable that it is not hidden away in a lightly read part of the forum without a 'link', unless of course someone has something to hide.

'Thanks' in anticipation, though I'm not confident, particularly in light of recent actions concerning some of my posts

OK, Hands off the mag "Good Woodworking" ?


Apparently, at least in my case it would seem to be.........or perhaps 'lets get billzee' or maybe 'both'

See what you think.

Several weeks ago I was given a so called "friendly" First and Last Warning after 'essentially' having the temerity to criticise GWW's apparent fairly common policy of single tool testing or testing tools whereby comparisons could NOT be made.

I also suggested that any group or organisation that has more than one paymaster can never be seen to be Totally independent.

The latter statement is fairly self-evident I would have thought and was never individually challenged, in fact nothing in my posts I believe was incorrect, instead it was my style or tone which apparently caused the damage. I apologised for the tone ( though I still thought I was correct) but to no avail, I was given a yellow card.

In fact to add insult to injury the ref told me, to some extent, he regretted giving me the warning

Not that much though cos he didn't withdraw it.

Ok, enough preamble.

Having read the 'Forum Rules' I can find no reason within them to explain why a posting of mine in the thread 'Replacement Batteries' in the' Buying Advice' section was edited.(censored)

The explanation given to me initially by the mod involved said it was because of the former incident just related

When I made a post to draw attention to this censoring, this was also deleted.

Sometime later, I was told the post was deleted because I had impuned GWW's integrity. I deny this. However instead of deleting the part he thought was impuning GWW's integrity he deleted the whole post which alluded to the original censorship.

So, being on a yellow card and then being censored, and then when I draw attention to it with another post, that is deleted I figure I cannot discuss this in open forum, so I go to PM's, where I am basically told to 'drop it'

I didn't, and bizarrely down the line I am informed I can discuss it in open forum so here I am

Amusingly, the atrocious inclusion of the words 'Good Woodworking' in the offending post which was deemed 'unacceptable' by a 'mod' still appears in the next post by Pete Martin where he chooses to quote me.

Some of pete martins post was deleted also.

To put you in the picture I referred initially to a letter printed in the last issue of GWW. Letters, page12. The author David Fraser writes , and I quote

...My experience is that the 12v battery for my Bosch drill cost a penny under £15.....

.

Now, to the point:

IMO, the above quote in this letter is a fiction.

In another part of my post ( deleted again) I pointed out that I would be as pleased as anybody if I were wrong ( as I could use a similar battery myself).

Now because this letter came from GWW's letter pages and I said so, GWW was deleted from my thread.

I was not implying implicitly or explicitly that GWW had fictionlised the letter and I made this clear to the mod involved but it was the bosch info related which seemed a fiction to me. No matter, I was still admonished.

As I said in the thread, I rang GWW to enquire if they had an address for their letter writer so we could all share in his cheap battery source.

Pete Martin @ GWW said that he could not vouch for the veracity of the letters content ( which is interesting in itself...hmm...later).

Now all this storm in a teacup says hands off GWW billzee or goodbye billzee.

The post was so mild as to be nearly comatosed.

God knows what would have happened if I had actually criticised GWW. The 'Boys' would be round by now.

UPDATE

Since last night all my posts of any relevence are being deleted.

Worryingly, but not surpisingly 3 messages in my outbox of my PM's were deleted.

When I posted that here in a new thread it was instantly deleted.

So whereas your pm's may be personal, they are not Private

Case Proven I think and

go careful out there

cheers

billzee

 

[frank]

billzee i dont buy gww and a few other mags ,it seems like there are more adverts than articles i know they need the revenue from the ads but i wont pay £3+ for adverts

 

[Midnight]

Now because this letter came from GWW's letter pages and I said so, GWW was deleted from my thread.

Given that one of the basic rules of grammar is to quote your sources, to me, this seems a little harsh... where's the harm??

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Personal Statement from Newbie_Neil - Moderator

The reason I am posting in this thread, as opposed to via a personal message, is that you Bill have brought this into the public arena. As I explained in more than one of my seven personal messages on this topic I purposely tried to keep this matter private to protect you and for no other reason.

I also said that if you wished to start a thread about censorship in General Chat (Off-Topic) that you were free to do so. But, if you did, I would also consider myself free to reply.

In reply to your “That’s censorship …..” I repeat what I said in one of my earlier personal messages, "I'm sorry you feel that way Bill but, like it or not, you have a history with GWW. As a direct result of that history any post you make mentioning GWW, AK or PM is bound to be looked at very closely."

I quote from another of your personal messages, ”I see it more as bullying on your part Neil. Sort of testing your new mod powers. But hey, we will see when the debate commences. I have no doubt that when the truth outs ( if it is allowed to) we will find out exactly what is what.” Bill, I’m sorry you believe this.

There was absolutely no problem with the battery thread until your posting, which failed the test of reasonableness, introduced an undercurrent. Other parties also picked up on this undercurrent. I stepped in and edited your post by taking out the reference to GWW whilst still retaining the sense of your post. I also edited the post of another party. I believe, that this was the first occasion that I have had to change a post, apart from correcting broken links. Out of courtesy I sent a private message to all parties explaining what I had done. Due to the moderators the battery thread was not allowed to degenerate into a free for all, the thread has continued in an adult fashion. I consider that a successful piece of moderation.

As I have already explained the reason that I deleted your post was not because it mentioned censorship but because you were making allegations about the integrity of another member. I would do exactly the same in any other circumstances, with any players not just the parties involved.

I believe that the members of this forum should respect each other when they are posting.

Censorship by a moderator will only occur when the censored poster, has failed to exercise the self-censorship that is their responsibility on a civilised public forum.

The only person who has talked about banning is you. Not one of my private messages to you has mentioned the word and, despite your claims to the contrary, at no time were you stopped from posting onto this forum.

As a moderator, I am unable to make any comment about the “final warning” given to you as it happened before I became a moderator.

For the fifth and final time of asking please drop this and move onto something that is related to making things with wood.

I have no further public comment to make.

Newbie_Neil

 

[Mike.C]

Hi All,

Some of you know my thoughts on censoring, which is except for bad language and a few other things that are not suitable on a family site there should not be any.

There certainly should not be any when a company/business like GWW or its staff are involved because we are only human and this could be seen as the company/business having some clout on this forum, which is not on.

Lets face it if things get over heated the moderators have always got the option of locking the thread, but even this should only be done as a last resort.

I do not know what was and what wasn't said about banning billzee form the forum, but i do not think that anyone person should be able to do this. If things get that bad and the moderators think that X should be banned then it should be put to a pole of all members. I am the first to realise that Charley started this site and all credit to him for attracting so many members, but at the same time the members are the site and it is us who have to deal with the person that someone else wants to ban.

I do not now how every one else feels but these are my thoughts.

Regards

Mike.C

 

[Jaco]

Agree with you. Any company, even if they sponsor, advertise etc. etc. should be open to criticism, as long as there is a VALID case. Edit/sensor for bad langauge (cant teach anything new to most of us in any case!)
Any good forum will have some conflict, as long as NO ONE gets personal.

 

[Alf]

It's a strange quirk of human nature that "censorship" is always taken to mean a Bad Thing.

Folks, we all censor what we say, every day. If we didn't, your SWMBO would have brained you by now for agreeing that yes, her bum does look big in that; you'd be unemployed 'cos you'd actually told the boss what you thought of his new plan for the business, etc etc. Get my drift? Participating on a civilised, moderated forum requires the same self-censorship. It's not particularly well-considered to start in on a subject again that has already been a bone of contention, and within days too. It's picking at a scab when you should be exercising some common sense and treading with slippered feet.

The aim of the moderation of this forum is to create a cheerful, pleasant place to talk woodworking. Therefore our goal is to make sure the majority of members feel comfortable here, and the majority of members help make this forum sucessful by also aiming for that, and being civil in their posts. And by-the-by, it's irrelevant if that member represents a company or business; they are still human beings and they still have feelings that can be hurt. If we feel any member has stepped over the line, be it after a complaint from another member or our own assessment of the situation, we will act. We don't go in for editing posts, deleting messages, thread locking, warning members or banning them, lightly. Not least 'cos it makes a pile of work to do. The first move is dependant on the problem, but it will usually involve a strong suggestion to leave the thread alone, editing the post by the poster themselves if possible and that's it. The majority of members, even if they disagree with our reasons why, will just go "okay" and think no more of it. If a member decides to disregard that friendly approach, we have to start being heavy-handed. It's not our fault. Members have a responsibility to take a hint when it's dropped from a great height.

Mike seems to be under the impression that this forum is run by a democracy. One man, one vote. He's quite correct. Charley's the man and he's got the vote. That may sound harsh, but let's be honest here. We're all here as Charley's guests. If he wants us to leave he doesn't have to explain or give any of us a second chance, he has every right to do it without a thought. 'Cos he's a nice guy, he bends over backwards to avoid that happening. It's not too much to ask that we all behave as guests should, is it? That we should all make an effort not to put him in that position where his other guests feel awkward? 99.5% of us will act as we should without a second thought anyway, so no need to start worrying, folks. For the 0.5% there are the mods to pull them up if they've strayed a little from acceptable behaviour. But it still requires that 0.5% to understand that, when push comes to shove, if they don't do as asked when it's put politely, then we have to get a little bit firm. And when it comes down to it, the ultimate, and only, way of solving the problem is banning a member. It's far and away the last thing any of us want to happen, but if a member just will not realise what harm they're causing to the smooth flow of the forum, and will not respond to polite requests to stop, there is simply no alternative.

The bottom line? We will not tolerate personal attack of any kind. If you want conflict, there's plenty to go round elsewhere. Disagreement is inevitable, argument is not. Memorise the phrase "agree to disagree" and don't be afraid to use it and then walk away from the thread. If you can't contribute to the forum in that frame of mind, please don't contribute until you can.

Cheers, Alf
Moderator

 

[Guest]

Neil,
Whilst I don't want to get into Bill's argument I do have a comment to make. You say "Members should respect each other" but when I posted a reply on a subject i was accused of calling another member a liar.I apologized if my post had been taken wrongly but received no word from said member.This is ALL I have to say
Jaymar

 

[Johnboy]

I think Alf has got it right. We are all Charley's guests and should respect his and his moderators decisions. This is not a democracy, it is Charley's place and if you don't like the rules then don't stay.

Bilzee, just drop it and get on with your life.

John

 

[Jaco]

Charley is the owner and the host! But when it becomes an open forum like this, one would expect some controvesy and disagreement, AS LONG AS ONE DOES NOT BECOME PERSONAL, you can say anything as long as the language can be understood ........ i could express this better in my own language.

 

[Midnight]

Alf wrote

your SWMBO would have brained you by now for agreeing that yes, her bum does look big in that

ummmmm... am I the only guy to discover that SWMBO ALWAYS thinks we think her bum looks big....irrespective of what we say...???

sometimes ya just canna win.....

 

[Anonymous]

Billzee

Neil discussed the posts and actions you mention with other moderators on the forum and we are 100% behind his actions and decisions.

Might I suggest that you should discuss any grievances you have with magazines privately rather than on the forum?

 

[Mike.C]

Hi All,

Jaymar you could not resist having a dig could you. As you are well aware that thread was locked down soon after your post and i never got a chance to reply to you. After that i was to busy apologizing to John, which a hell of a lot of people thought was funny (Thanks to those of you who sent PM's telling me to leave it out as other members thought i was an ***** apologizing and were taking the P--s) and which i would not do again.

Regards

Mike.C

 

[Noel]

Speaking from a personal point of view I really can't see people's problems with various publications. If you don't like a magazine, don't buy it. I don't write in to "Points Of View" to whinge about a programme, I change channels or get off my bum and do something else.
Life is waaay too short to moan and carp about things that are basically of little importance in relation to the bigger picture.
Sure, on occasion a bit of polite and constructive comment can further and enhance a particular discussion or even provide the catalyst for new topics of interest.
Being an active member of this forum is not unlike visiting a fellow woodworkers' workshop for the first time. A measure of decorum and respect is required. This forum is no different and the vast majority of us have never even met each other.
Sunday sermon over.

Rgds

Noel

 

[Anonymous]

Mod note:

I have deleted Bilzee's last post to this thread as it was a peurile attempt to provoke argument and bad feeling.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi

I mentioned in my first post about my doubts about a link being allowed in general woodwork to this thread

1)The original link in general woodwork to here was deleted.

I noticed this and posted in newbie_neils post 'FAO Billzee' ( posted in off topic) that the link to this post here was deleted. No warning of this, no mention by the mods.

I put another link in and told newbie neil/mod that the original link been deleted and put another link in general woodwork.

This stayed for a while, now that has been deleted. NO warning, no mention

Also the FAO Billzee in off-topic has also been deleted.

edit:

Tony, mod, Having just seen my last post deleted, if it was puerile, why not leave it for others to see the same as you. Surely it could only damage me.

Mind you if it was closely argued , moderate and truthful, perhaps that would be a better reason to delete it.

...as indeed this will be deleted

ah, you deleted the other one, not this one.

Sorry I don't get angry tony, misinformation and deletions just amuse me and convince me I'm right

My pm's are now being deleted. I posted as much here and they were
deleted. Your messages may be personal but they are not private

Case proven yet again

 

[Anonymous]

Bill

I did not delete the post you refer to BUT this topic is NOT about general woodworking. It IS off topic chat.

 

[Anonymous]

Case proven then

 

[Anonymous]

Bill

Please stop this ridiculous line of reasoning. As a moderator of this forum, I have deleted one post of yours and have placed a message in this thread detailing the reason.
Also moderators CANNOT delete private messages NOR even see them.


On a personal note (mod hat off),
You clearly do not like the way the forum is run and feel that there is a vendetta against you (there is not) so why visit it?
May I suggest that you post only woodworking related messages or leave of your own free will and frequent a forum more to your liking.

 

[johnelliott]

I like the way this forum is run and I believe the moderators do a really good job. Well done and thanks
John