Hand plane - Rules of engagement

[Bluekingfisher]

Gents/Ladies

Before I go completely mad with this I am hoping someone with hand plane expertise can assist me please.

Having spent a couple of hours fiddling this morning I think I may have got it right but in case I have got there by the wrong means please let me know.

I fitted a new thicker blade iron and cap iron to my Stanley # 4 1/2. Well actually only the blade. After all my huffing and puffing I wondered if by fitting a new thicker 3mm blade there is a different set of rules for the set up? No matter how much I advanced and retracted the frog I could manage to ensure the blade cleared the mouth on the sole. It either didn't protrude of it was fouled by the front edge of the mouth. Also, the Y adjustment lever wasn't long enough to engage the slot in the cap iron through the thicker blade.

I finally decided that the new blade would have to be fitted with the old and thinner cap iron to allow it to bed properly on the Y lever. The other issue is, I could only make the blade protrude by setting the cap iron back from the front edge of the blade iron by about 4mm.

Have I missed something or is there some other adjustment required, or are the old Stanley's not comparable with newer and thicker blades and chip breakers.

Any assistance gratefully received.
David

 

[JohnPW]

It seems this is a known problem when trying to use thicker blades on Stanley type planes. The answer is use a file and make the mouth bigger, and use a longer Y lever.

http://forums.ukworkshop.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=279020

 

[Jacob]

Simpler answer is to not try to fit thick blades. It's a fairly pointless fashion.

 

[JohnPW]

I think the (relatively) more recent planes have wider mouths, perhaps thicker blades will work better on those.

 

[Vann]

I fitted a new thicker blade iron and cap iron to my Stanley # 4 1/2. Well actually only the blade. After all my huffing and puffing I wondered if by fitting a new thicker 3mm blade there is a different set of rules for the set up? No matter how much I advanced and retracted the frog I could manage to ensure the blade cleared the mouth on the sole. It either didn't protrude of it was fouled by the front edge of the mouth. Also, the Y adjustment lever wasn't long enough to engage the slot in the cap iron through the thicker blade.

Fitting a thicker iron can cause a few problems, especially if the new iron is up around 3mm thick, or thicker.

- Firstly, as you have noticed, the yoke (or Y lever) will be at or beyond it's max. reach. The most common fix for this is to lengthen the yoke with a lump of weld/braze, or to silver solder or epoxy a small piece on the end. The other approach is to fit lugs above and below the yoke slot in the cap iron, narrow enough so that they fit in the slot in the cutting iron.

- Then there's the mouth of the plane. A 3mm thick iron needs a mouth that's around 5.5mm or more, wide (measured along the sole) in order to pass through. If the plane is common-or-garden then you can decide to file a bit off the front face, or the rear face, of the mouth, or a bit off both. Set the frog so that it's in line with the back of the mouth. If the plane is valuable, you'll reduce it's value by taking to it with a file.

- The screw that holds the cap-iron to the iron can be too short, or at it's limit. Slightly longer screws can be obtained through Clifton stockists.

- The screw that the lever-cap pivots on needs to be un-screwed a little, and this will reduce the number of threads taking the clamping strain (I've not found one of these that was too short - yet).

I finally decided that the new blade would have to be fitted with the old and thinner cap iron to allow it to bed properly on the Y lever....

Have I missed something or is there some other adjustment required, or are the old Stanley's not comparable with newer and thicker blades and chip breakers.

The problem is not the cap-iron, it's the thickness of the new iron, which positions any cap-iron (the new one or the old one) further from the frog face and the yoke.

Most manufacturers of replacement irons make them around 2.4mm to 2.6mm to avoid the worst of these problems. In my limited experience, if your cutting iron isn't pitted, and isn't made of cheese, stick with it and fit a thicker cap-iron only. It avoids all of these problems (except the last) and it beefs up the double iron almost as much as a thicker cutting iron does.

The other issue is, I could only make the blade protrude by setting the cap iron back from the front edge of the blade iron by about 4mm.

I'm not sure what's going on here, but the problem may resolve itself once you've fixed the yoke and the mouth.

HTH.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I think the (relatively) more recent planes have wider mouths, perhaps thicker blades will work better on those.

I found a plastic handled Stanley No.4 at the dump in the scrap metal skip. When I cleaned it up, I thought the mouth looked wide, so I measured it against a '50s No6 - the smoother's mouth was 50% wider.

 

[matthewwh]

Hi David,

There's a bit of a process to work through with fitting thicker irons. Stanley and Record have made a lot of planes over the last century and a bit, and slight changes to the specification have occurred over that time, how far you need to go depends on what you are starting with.

The first step is to ask if the cutting iron actually needs replacing, you can get quite a performance boost relatively cheaply and easily just by changing the cap iron. If you do need / want to change the cutting iron as well, read on...

About 60% of planes will take a 3mm thick cutting iron without modification. For the vast majority of the remainder, fitting a longer Y lever in place of the original will allow the thicker iron to be used. There are a very small number of older planes where the hole for the Y-Lever pin is just too far back for a normal replacement Y-lever to work, but this can be overcome with a dollop of braize on the end of the tab and then filing back to size.

In some cases it may also be necessary to file out the front of the mouth a fraction to allow the thicker iron to fit through. If it's a really early or valuable example, you might consider choosing a good quality thinner iron instead, like a Ray Iles RI021S (2") or RI023S (2-3/8"), which will drop straight in without the need for any alterations.

The only truly unfettleable planes I have encountered have been current production budget models where the cap iron length, frog dimensions and Y-lever dimensions have all been significantly non-standard.

 

[Bluekingfisher]

Fellas,

Thanks very much for the input and advice. I am a little satisfied in the knowledge that I wasn't completely wrong in my attempts at fitting the new blade. The plane in question is not valuable although it's a nice old piece, probably pre war and would therefore seem a shame to alter it in any way.

I have replaced the original iron (no damage and perfectly useable) although I have made use of the Clifton two piece cap iron which I bought with the iron several years ago and only come across both of them in the past day or so, hence my attempt at trying them in the 4 1/2.

Anyway, fellas thanks for taking the time to answer my query, much appreciated.

David.

 

[Vann]

I have replaced the original iron (no damage and perfectly useable) although I have made use of the Clifton two piece cap iron...

IMHO the two-piece cap-iron is the best design of cap-iron available, so good choice =D> .

Some people hate the two-piece because the bottom piece (the "deflector" in Record speak) can fall off (and hide in the shavings on the floor). The best way of inserting and removing your double-iron is to do so with your forefinger on the deflector.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Bluekingfisher]

I have replaced the original iron (no damage and perfectly useable) although I have made use of the Clifton two piece cap iron...

IMHO the two-piece cap-iron is the best design of cap-iron available, so good choice =D> .

Some people hate the two-piece because the bottom piece (the "deflector" in Record speak) can fall off (and hide in the shavings on the floor). The best way of inserting and removing your double-iron is to do so with your forefinger on the deflector.

Cheers, Vann.

Good to know I made a good choice on the cap iron Vann, albeit by luck rather than judgement. I will try it out for a few days then perhaps treat my self to one of those direct replacement RI blade irons while the idea is still fresh in my mind.

Thanks again.

David