Hammer F3 or similar?

[LBCarpentry]

Looking at getting a second spindle moulder. I have one already set up for casements and sash’s and decided I’m going to leave it so. I’m sick of breaking it down to do a small task and then set it back up again. So a second one is needed.

Must have a sliding table as I would like to do tenoning on it. Has to be reasonably small in size. I like the spindle option for router bits as I don’t already have a router table.
So does anyone have experience on the F3? Looks like a tidy little thing and not too overkill for 99% of tasks. I have a folder K500s and it’s an absolute workhorse. 7 years use everyday and I’ve barely had to touch it. So happy to use folder group again. I also like SCM minimax products. But realise the price is considerably more.

TIA

 

[Peter Sefton]

I had an F3 for 14 years and never had any issues with it, only sold it to get a combined Hammer saw/spindle. The saw spindle is good but separates is better.

 

[LBCarpentry]

Just having a look at the Axminster trade series as well as the itech. Tempting for the price (under 2k!)

Have just been quoted £4.2k for the hammer with all the bits I require. I can justify the cost. Obviously the hammer can handle a lot more than the others. I also find it promising that I can find NO hammers available 2nd hand. People must be holding onto them for a reason.

just remembered Rojek! Shall have a quick look at them.

 

[LBCarpentry]

So I’m down to either the Hammer F3 or SCM tw45c

will purchase new or used.

many recommendations / suggestions or reviews on either are most welcome.

 

[Mike Jordan]

I am happy to speak up for the Sedgewick SM3. I've owned mine for more than 20 years without fault. Some appear to have alloy fences with little or no provision for fitting a false fence. Avoid the Chinese rubbish no matter what label has been stuck on it.

 

[LBCarpentry]

??
I already have a Sedgwick sm 4

The query is regarding SCM or hammer?

 

[Mike Jordan]

Both of the companies seem to have bases in China so my remark still stands.

 

[Trevanion]

Can't stretch the budget a bit to a Martin, LB?

You're right that you don't see many newish Felder or Hammer machines for sale second-hand on places like eBay (I reckon because they're priced out of the hobbyist market for the most part) but they very often come up in business liquidation auctions like AuctionNews or BidSpotter (Because several Felder Finance payments bleed you dry eventually ) so it may be worth keeping an eye there.

I'd personally be looking at a second-hand SCM T100, T110 or even T120 as many came with sliding tables (I think on the T100 they were fitted as standard) and they are build extraordinarily tough, far above even Sedgwick in build quality and robustness, and that's coming from a Sedgwick Enthusiast!

I'd much rather have a separate tenoner though.

Both of the companies seem to have bases in China so my remark still stands.

Felder builds a good portion of their machines in Austria, SCM builds a good portion of their machines in Italy, Sedgwick builds an equally good portion of their machines in Britain, unfortunately, they all use Chinese parts for the less essential pieces.

 

[Mike Jordan]

The JCB production line was halted recently because of a shortage of valves made in China. Perhaps they rate as less essential parts?
These companies are intent on making a saving but are cutting off the branch they are sitting on.

 

[Trevanion]

The JCB production line was halted recently because of a shortage of valves made in China. Perhaps they rate as less essential parts?
These companies are intent on making a saving but are cutting off the branch they are sitting on.

I think that's a bit unfair, to be honest, it wouldn't too much of a stretch to say that the trade could be seriously halted if say some Congolese rebels decided they were going to bomb the sawmills that produce most of the world's Sapele and Iroko, or if the Accoya processing plant went up in flames the knock-on effect would be catastrophic. Very rarely use anything homegrown!

Whilst I don't agree with the CCP and the way they treat their people, some of the best engineering and highest quality products in the world come out of China. Much like Britain in the past, they've got the ability to make great things (Think Morgan Motors) and also the ability to make utter tosh (Think British Leyland ) it's all down to the quality control.

 

[LBCarpentry]

Can't stretch the budget a bit to a Martin, LB?
.....

I'd much rather have a separate tenoner though.
.

Ha! I’m a regular tight arse just like most business owners. Other than those machines that have auto sets, I really don’t see the point of spending 10k + on any machine.

So here’s my setup. I already have Sedgwick sm4, Sedgwick Morticer & multico tenoner set up for sash’s, casements and doors (stacked ovolo and rebate in one pass). I’ve decided that I’m never going to break them down for other work. We make so many sash’s and doors I simply must keep them setup if I want to grow.

So I need a second spindle moulder for everything else that crops up. Space is getting tightish and I don’t have the space for a second tenoner - Hence the attachment, and the small footprint

Louis

 

[Chippyjoe]

Hi, my two penneth, I looked at the F3 when I went to Felder at Milton Keynes last year.
Nice machine but I ended up buying the Felder 700Z spindle moulder. More money but a lovely machine. Doesn't really answer your question but, on You Tube Andy at Manor Wood has the F3 and he seems to rate it highly.

Mark.

 

[LBCarpentry]

Thanks for input!

It could well be coming down to who can get it to me quicker. Both machines are the exact same price and quality and will obviously serve pretty faultlessly for years. Phoning around it seems like Jan is the earliest date. But I need one in 2 weeks! Shall pull the trigger today.

New machine day is always fun!

 

[Yojevol]

Just having a look at the Axminster trade series as well as the itech. Tempting for the price (under 2k!)

Have just been quoted £4.2k for the hammer with all the bits I require. I can justify the cost. Obviously the hammer can handle a lot more than the others. I also find it promising that I can find NO hammers available 2nd hand. People must be holding onto them for a reason.

just remembered Rojek! Shall have a quick look at them.

Have you had a look at Scott+Sergeant? On offer at the moment
Brian

 

[LBCarpentry]

Something I must have considered 100 times.

So here’s a brief list of what it will cut.

15 x 50mm rebates into softwoods and hardwoods (oak etc)

9 degree bevels for door cills (requires big 9 degree block)

Small grooves for shaker doors

Tenons for frame sections of approx 95mm x 75mm and up to 2.5meters long - this would probably tip over that little thing!

That’s pretty much it. I just can’t see it being robust enough for everyday Pro workshop life! Plus I doubt it will hold much value

 

[Trevanion]

Something I must have considered 100 times.

So here’s a brief list of what it will cut.

15 x 50mm rebates into softwoods and hardwoods (oak etc)

9 degree bevels for door cills (requires big 9 degree block)

Small grooves for shaker doors

Tenons for frame sections of approx 95mm x 75mm and up to 2.5meters long - this would probably tip over that little thing!

That’s pretty much it. I just can’t see it being robust enough for everyday Pro workshop life! Plus I doubt it will hold much value

That's an identical machine to what Axminster used to sell only blue and grey instead of white and grey

Seems a pretty decent machine for the money (a tilting spindle is a wonderful thing) but as you say, everything is basically the bare minimum of what you require. Whilst 3.75HP is fairly powerful it will struggle with tenoning and heavier cuts and the sliding table probably isn't designed with long lengths in mind.

There's a beautiful Lazzari LL1000 on the bay at the moment for a fair price, with sliding table, power feed and tilting spindle to boot, probably one of the best machines you could put your money into.

 

[mikefab]

Have you tried JMJ wood machinery? I have had a couple of machines (including SCM spindle) off them recently and they came from stock.

 

[LBCarpentry]

FOR THE RECORD. As im sure your all dying to know.

I have (in my head) decided to go with the Hammer F3 over the SCM for the following reasons....

The hammer has interchangeable spindle's including one for router bits. (Big plus as I don't have a router table)
The tenoning bed runs at the same level as the table, unlike the SCM which sits higher
The hammer has safety bar guides for tenoning as well as moulding No / less need for sacrificial fence

Thats about all that was in it. But all valid points

Many thanks for the thoughts everyone!

Louis

 

[Trevanion]

Tell us what you think of it when you get it in the New Year!

I've never had much patience for the safety bars on the SCM, too much of a faff to change the Tuffnol inserts in the fence plates out for the bars and then back for whatever job is next.

 

[custard]

The hammer has interchangeable spindle's including one for router bits. (Big plus as I don't have a router table)

Makes sense to me.

I regularly use the Hammer/Felder spindle/router shaft. For larger router bits the 15,000 RPM speed is perfect, and it's surprising how good the finish is even with smaller router bits that you'd normally use at faster speeds.

What's really surprising though is the difference in finish quality when the same router bit is used hand fed in a router table, versus power fed on a spindle moulder. There's no doubt that the spindle moulder delivers a noticeable improvement.