Grinding Chisels & Plane irons

[Corneel]

I can sharpen a plane iron or chisel freehand, at something like 30 degrees, no problem.

What I can't is resharpen it!

Well, of course going through the grids will get me a sharp edge again at the cost of a lot of metal and time. But I see sometimes videos of old guys working, puting the chisel to the stone for a couple of swirls, and start working again. That's what baffles me.

I suspect I am the analytical kind of guy and want to understand before I try.

 

[Jacob]

I can sharpen a plane iron or chisel freehand, at something like 30 degrees, no problem.

What I can't is resharpen it!..

It's not so much "resharpen" it's more about keeping it sharp, little and often. To get "repeatable" results (the holy grail) you do it the same way every time. This gets slower as the bevel extends, until you need to regrind. (Forgetting the rounded under bevel for the moment. :shock: one thing at a time)

 

[gus3049]

I can sharpen a plane iron or chisel freehand, at something like 30 degrees, no problem.

What I can't is resharpen it!

Well, of course going through the grids will get me a sharp edge again at the cost of a lot of metal and time. But I see sometimes videos of old guys working, puting the chisel to the stone for a couple of swirls, and start working again. That's what baffles me.

I suspect I am the analytical kind of guy and want to understand before I try.

All I do is find the main flat area of the grind by placing the chisel or cutter onto the stone. By rocking it slightly, its is obvious where the flat is. Increase the angle slightly and pull the blade towards you a few times. You soon learn the amount of extra angle to use. This should hone the cutting bevel. Once thats done a very light rub of the flat side will remove any burr you MAY have created. This is a matter of trial and error until it becomes second nature. I realise there are those who need the instructions and want to be exact but it is not always necessary. There are times when really sharp is as good as exceedingly sharp and hand honing will always achieve the former but the latter will come with practice.

 

[Corneel]

So let me try to wrap my mind around this one.

We have a chisel fresh from the grinder and put a minimal secondary bevel of 30 degree on it.
We cut some wood with it and feel that it needs a tough up.
So we put the chisel back on the stone at something like 30 degrees, could be 32, could be 28, we don't know. But because the secondary bevel is so small it DOESN'T REALLY MATTER. We just make a new secondary bevel at that new angle.
We shouldn't look too quickly at how we are doing because each time we lift up the chisel and have a look, we will put the chisel down at yet another angle and have to start over.

That's about it?

I've plenty of time to think about this at the moment because I strained my back and am not up to much good anyway.

 

[Corneel]

Thanks for the ideas Gordon.

 

[jimi43]

Time saved by not using jigs....30 seconds...

Time spent wombling on and on about it in every single thread on sharpening....3 weeks, 2 days 10 hours, 15 minutes, 6 seconds and counting..... :roll:

Priceless..... :mrgreen:

Jim

 

[Corneel]

I wouldn't dream of going freehand, if it wasn't for the gouges.

 

[GazPal]

So let me try to wrap my mind around this one.

We have a chisel fresh from the grinder and put a minimal secondary bevel of 30 degree on it.
We cut some wood with it and feel that it needs a tough up.
So we put the chisel back on the stone at something like 30 degrees, could be 32, could be 28, we don't know. But because the secondary bevel is so small it DOESN'T REALLY MATTER. We just make a new secondary bevel at that new angle.
We shouldn't look too quickly at how we are doing because each time we lift up the chisel and have a look, we will put the chisel down at yet another angle and have to start over.

That's about it?

I've plenty of time to think about this at the moment because I strained my back and am not up to much good anyway.

Yep, that just about sums it up.

A primary grind/bevel lays the foundation and the secondary bevel simply refines the edge. Text book angles are there for guidance and the primary focus should be on achieving a sound, keen cutting edge based around grinding angles. An individual is free to test drive angle variations in order to find what works best for him/herself on the timber being dealt with, whilst not needing to worry whether or not the world will end if a honing angle is plus or minus a half degree from "ideal". It's a law of averages kind of thing.

 

[Corneel]

Yeah it's not that I am interested in the exact angle. It's about wasting time when you rehone at a shallower angle.

But I am going to sleep now, and dream about sharp edges :lol:

 

[GazPal]

I can sharpen a plane iron or chisel freehand, at something like 30 degrees, no problem.

What I can't is resharpen it!

Well, of course going through the grids will get me a sharp edge again at the cost of a lot of metal and time. But I see sometimes videos of old guys working, puting the chisel to the stone for a couple of swirls, and start working again. That's what baffles me.

I suspect I am the analytical kind of guy and want to understand before I try.

It's called whetting the edge. "Old guys" simply do this by trusting their senses.

Perhaps the best approach is not to over analyse matters and simply relax more in your approach to sharpening. Stance and grip tend to dictate the angles worked. This is how honing guides work by clamping the iron at an angle suiting one necessary to achieve the target angle. By going freehand, all you're doing is replacing mechanical means with those already possessed by yourself. Your own senses.

 

[GazPal]

Yeah it's not that I am interested in the exact angle. It's about wasting time when you rehone at a shallower angle.

But I am going to sleep now, and dream about sharp edges :lol:

Simply position your fingers at a point of the blade - behind the edge - with the blade set at a known angle and a knuckle in contact with the sharpening medium. If you begin removing flesh when honing an edge, you know your angle of attack is too low. :lol:

 

[Vann]

I agree half a day spent sharpening may appear to be time lost, but this theoretical timescale does not quantify the number of tools sharpened, nor does it prove the time was wasted. Time was never wasted if what was learned during this half day reduces the length of time spent during the next sharpening session and the end results are keen edged tools and improved sharpening skills.

If only it was but half a day.
That works if you're an apprentice and spend half a day learning to sharpen. Then each morning/afternoon you rehone all your tools for months until you have the muscle memory to be able to do it naturally.

But for the part timer you might spend half a day practicing, then not get back into the workshop for another two weeks by which time all muscle memory has gone so you spend another half day practicing. Then the missus reminds you you're going out that afternoon and you don't get back into the workshop for another 2 weeks, where you spend another half day trying to remember what you have twice half-learnt and twice lost... You get my drift.

I was taught to freehand hone on an oilstone (a la Jacob). But then I haven't worked at my trade for 30 odd years. I could probably still do it. But I like the precision of a honing guide, and I don't want the frustration of faffing it up freehand.

And if I was stuck on a desert island with just a Record 04 and a tree, well I'd be too scared to make a boat to sail home in case my dovetails weren't up to scratch... :roll:

My tuppence worth.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Harbo]

As I see it it is the Freehanders who moan and moan and moan about people using jigs not the other way round?

Rod

 

[GazPal]

If only it was but half a day.
That works if you're an apprentice and spend half a day learning to sharpen. Then each morning/afternoon you rehone all your tools for months until you have the muscle memory to be able to do it naturally.

But for the part timer you might spend half a day practicing, then not get back into the workshop for another two weeks by which time all muscle memory has gone so you spend another half day practicing. Then the missus reminds you you're going out that afternoon and you don't get back into the workshop for another 2 weeks, where you spend another half day trying to remember what you have twice half-learnt and twice lost... You get my drift.

I was taught to freehand hone on an oilstone (a la Jacob). But then I haven't worked at my trade for 30 odd years. I could probably still do it. But I like the precision of a honing guide, and I don't want the frustration of faffing it up freehand.

And if I was stuck on a desert island with just a Record 04 and a tree, well I'd be too scared to make a boat to sail home in case my dovetails weren't up to scratch... :roll:

My tuppence worth.

Cheers, Vann.

Yes, time is precious and I certainly get your drift, while already agreeing to the preference or need some have for honing guides. I also agree there's nothing wrong with using them. Like yourself and Jacob, I too was taught to freehand hone using oil stones, but simply advocate others practise doing so - if they wish - as it can help them become more familiar with their tools.

This half day's worth of sharpening that's been mentioned shouldn't really be necessary and one could very easily practise whilst thumbing through fora, watching tv, or reviewing a tool catalogue or three. It was only last year when I taught my son how to hone freehand before he began his cabinetmaking apprenticeship and he pretty much had things figured out within a half hour or so.

As I see it it is the Freehanders who moan and moan and moan about people using jigs not the other way round?

Rod

Moaning isn't exclusive to freehanders, otherwise you'd not be passing such comments and others wouldn't prove so defensive of their preferences. :wink:

The fact is everyone's free to make their own choice as to sharpening methods/techniques.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Moaning isn't exclusive to freehanders

Unless their name is Jacob :lol: Pity he can't accept that most of us are quite happy with the way we hone our blades.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Jacob]

.........
But for the part timer you might spend half a day practicing, then not get back into the workshop for another two weeks by which time all muscle memory has gone ......

It's like riding a bike - once done never forgotten. Takes a lot longer to learn to ride a bike as it's a lot more difficult.
In fact there is nothing much to "learn" about freehand honing - you just do it. The results will be adequate at the beginning but will improve with time - if you want them to. It's proactive - you decide the outcome and work to whatever level you choose.

 

[bugbear]

Bit of a false dichotomy there.

Lecturers and teachers would seem good people to seek instruction from.

BugBear

Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach. :lol:

Speaking as the brother of someone who spent their entire career successfully guiding children through school, exams and life, I find that particular quote particularly offensive. Well done, you've managed to be even more annoying than usual.

BugBear

 

[bugbear]

I agree half a day spent sharpening may appear to be time lost, but this theoretical timescale does not quantify the number of tools sharpened, nor does it prove the time was wasted. Time was never wasted if what was learned during this half day reduces the length of time spent during the next sharpening session and the end results are keen edged tools and improved sharpening skills.

If only it was but half a day.

Five weeks according to Jacob. Or one week. Or half an hour. Or "just do it". The story changes.

BugBear

 

[GazPal]

I agree half a day spent sharpening may appear to be time lost, but this theoretical timescale does not quantify the number of tools sharpened, nor does it prove the time was wasted. Time was never wasted if what was learned during this half day reduces the length of time spent during the next sharpening session and the end results are keen edged tools and improved sharpening skills.

If only it was but half a day.

Five weeks according to Jacob. Or one week. Or half an hour. Or "just do it". The story changes.

BugBear

Considering the fact most speak of woodworking as a recreational hobby, is there a particular need to apply timescales upon learning practical skill sets. Uptake and attitude will always vary from individual to individual.

------------

As you're doubtless aware, in days of old, teachers were often those who were unable ply their trade following serious injury/illness, or otherwise unable to convert theoretical knowledge into practicing their chosen profession. Hence the saying "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." Whilst teaching is a truly commendable vocation, some travel that route simply because they're unable to find work or earn a living as e.g. mathematicians, artists, biologist, professional sportsmen/women, historians, or authors, for whatever reasons. Most teachers do so through choice and because they enjoy their work, but a few still fit into the category I've already mentioned. I've a sister who wanted to work as a professional artist, but lacks the self discipline and patience to do so and so she chose to become a teacher. Am I offended by Jacob's use of an age old phrase? No.

If I were in the marketplace for work I'd need to consider teaching as a viable option, because health issues no longer allow me to practice my trade as a cabinetmaker. I'd literally fall into the "Those who can't, teach" category. Would I be offended by such a description? No, but I would define the reasoning behind my career decision.

 

[clk230]

how can someone on an internet forum using an age old saying with a smiley after it offend anyone , if that offends you maybe internet forums aren't for you.

its only bl**** woodwork