Grinding Chisels & Plane irons

[GazPal]

........ one thing that was drilled into us apprentices during our early days was for us not to rely upon jigs and machinery to do the work for us. This was in spite of having others more qualified than ourselves using machinery to carry out the various tasks we were given to carry out with hand tools. We learned the basics without reliance upon aids, .....
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Same for me (though I was never an apprentice). The big road to Damascus revelation was how much could be done with so little.
I admire the green woodwork brigade - now doing it with even less!

Getting back to basics, it basically boils down to starting with a basic kit of tools and adding bits and pieces to make life easier on site or in the workshop. We used to have an skillful old timer working with us back in the 70's who could shave and hang a door using an adze, firmer chisel and screwdriver (Not a lie nielsen/veritas plane in sight) .......... His work was just as skillfully and well executed as any one of us could manage working from our full joinery boxes and chests and he highlighted the fact that habitual practise makes for near perfect craftsmanship. It's just a case of how far the individual wishes to extend himself and practise his skills.

We worked alongside some green woodworkers a few years back and it was fascinating watching them work with minimal tooling. The McGyvers of the woodwoorking world.

 

[Racers]

Hi, Gary

I keep pointing out that hobby woodworkers don't get enough time to fully develop there skils, so short cuts like honing guides do have a place.


Pete

 

[Jacob]

Hi, Gary

I keep pointing out that hobby woodworkers don't get enough time to fully develop there skils, so short cuts like honing guides do have a place.


Pete

The above is a non sequitur. If you don't have time to develop skills then freehand is easier to learn, and saves time. Honing guides aren't short cuts, they just make it more difficult!
We were hobbyists or beginners once. We can remember what it was like.
It's up to you who you listen to - experienced woodworkers (who once were beginners themselves) giving free advice, or salesmen, often with no woodwork skills at all, selling gadgets, DVDs etc.

 

[Anonymous]

 

[GazPal]

Hi, Gary

I keep pointing out that hobby woodworkers don't get enough time to fully develop there skils, so short cuts like honing guides do have a place.


Pete

Hi Pete,

I've never said jigs don't have their place, or shouldn't be used. I agree with the use of guides and jigs, but if they treat them as a temporary measure it is perfectly reasonable for a hobby worker to polish up his/her sharpening skill sets if desired. Jigs are marvellous things, but can prove to be a form of crutch (Not in a detrimental way) if solely relied upon in order to achieve a goal that's reachable with a little practise.

 

[Racers]

Hi, Gary

But its all about the woodworking, if you have to spend half a day sharping thats 1/4 of your weekend gone (possibly more depending on what else you have on) I know in the long run it will pay off, but its more important to make something, given the limited time.

Pete

 

[bugbear]

It's up to you who you listen to - experienced woodworkers (who once were beginners themselves) giving free advice, or salesmen, often with no
woodwork skills at all, selling gadgets, DVDs etc.

Bit of a false dichotomy there.

Lecturers and teachers would seem good people to seek instruction from.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Hi, Gary

But its all about the woodworking, if you have to spend half a day sharping thats 1/4 of your weekend gone (possibly more depending on what else you have on) I know in the long run it will pay off, but its more important to make something, given the limited time.

Pete

Freehand honing is quicker. Otherwise it'd be completely bloody pointless!!!
It will save you hours. A little and often. Not unlike sharpening a pencil (not quite as easy). It'll pay off from the beginning. Or after an hour or so to get you started.

 

[Jacob]

It's up to you who you listen to - experienced woodworkers (who once were beginners themselves) giving free advice, or salesmen, often with no
woodwork skills at all, selling gadgets, DVDs etc.

Bit of a false dichotomy there.

Lecturers and teachers would seem good people to seek instruction from.

BugBear

Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach. :lol:
So only if they are experienced woodworkers too and aren't trying to sell you something. Here's the first one that sprang to mind.

 

[DTR]

hobby woodworkers don't get enough time to fully develop there skils, so short cuts like honing guides do have a place.

If you don't have time to develop skills then freehand is easier to learn, and saves time.

if you have to spend half a day sharping thats 1/4 of your weekend gone

Freehand honing is quicker. Otherwise it'd be completely bloody pointless!!!

Does anyone ever wonder how much time has been wasted by discussing it on an internet forum? (hammer)

 

[gus3049]

But its all about the woodworking, if you have to spend half a day sharping thats 1/4 of your weekend gone (possibly more depending on what else you have on) I know in the long run it will pay off, but its more important to make something, given the limited time.

One gets the impression that Jacob may have been a terrier of some kind in a previous existence. I bet that bone had some deep teeth marks in it :lol:

 

[Corneel]

Until now I've been a real sharpening jig lover. The Eclipse is a brilliant piece of engineering, really quick, and we're talking seconds here, not minutes. What I really like about the jig is the repeatability. When you put the blade in the jig, you KNOW that you are honing at the very edge, so honing takes the minimum amount of time possible.

But I am never to old to learn something new. And I'm more then willing to spend a few hours on learning freehand sharpening. But I don't understand how you get that repeatability.

Let's take a practical example. I am planing. The blade has been shaped on the grinder and sharpened and honed using a jig or freehand, whatever. But now while I am planing I feel that the edge looses its sharpness, so I pull it out of the plane. It doesn't need a complete grinding session, just a quick honing on my finest stone. How do I find the edge?

 

[GazPal]

Hi, Gary

But its all about the woodworking, if you have to spend half a day sharping thats 1/4 of your weekend gone (possibly more depending on what else you have on) I know in the long run it will pay off, but its more important to make something, given the limited time.

Pete

When it boils down to aquiring skill sets, is the mode of transport, journey or final destination most important?

I agree half a day spent sharpening may appear to be time lost, but this theoretical timescale does not quantify the number of tools sharpened, nor does it prove the time was wasted. Time was never wasted if what was learned during this half day reduces the length of time spent during the next sharpening session and the end results are keen edged tools and improved sharpening skills.

If sharpening is left until all tools are blunted it will take an excessive amount of time to re-sharpen them, but the norm - in my experience - is to re-whet/touch up an edge whenever necessary and not leave sharpening until you've an excessive number of edged tools to re-work. A valuable factor to consider is for one not to leave re-honing until an edge is lost, but rather re-whet an edge as soon as it shows signs becoming dulled.

 

[GazPal]

Until now I've been a real sharpening jig lover. The Eclipse is a brilliant piece of engineering, really quick, and we're talking seconds here, not minutes. What I really like about the jig is the repeatability. When you put the blade in the jig, you KNOW that you are honing at the very edge, so honing takes the minimum amount of time possible.

But I am never to old to learn something new. And I'm more then willing to spend a few hours on learning freehand sharpening. But I don't understand how you get that repeatability.

Let's take a practical example. I am planing. The blade has been shaped on the grinder and sharpened and honed using a jig or freehand, whatever. But now while I am planing I feel that the edge looses its sharpness, so I pull it out of the plane. It doesn't need a complete grinding session, just a quick honing on my finest stone. How do I find the edge?

You find the edge by laying the primary bevel flat on your oil/water stone and raise the body of the iron until the fore end of the bevel displaces surplus oil/water slurry ahead of the cutting edge. This normally indicates the fact your iron is tilted at an angle matching that of the original secondary bevel and a few passes on the stone at this angle will re-whet the edge.

Learning this allows you to quickly regain your original secondary bevel and it's a simple case of checking the resulting angle against a protractor and adjusting your stance until the desired angle is achieved. With a little practise, muscle memory is obtained and this becomes a fully repeatable process.

 

[gus3049]

Agree about the regular honing. We were taught to spend five minutes at the start of EVERY day in the workshop, quickly running all the tools we were going to use that day over the water stone. It keeps the cutting bevel spot on and you know that every tool will be at its best. It only needs a very light pass to keep them sharp..

 

[Jacob]

But its all about the woodworking, if you have to spend half a day sharping thats 1/4 of your weekend gone (possibly more depending on what else you have on) I know in the long run it will pay off, but its more important to make something, given the limited time.

One gets the impression that Jacob may have been a terrier of some kind in a previous existence. I bet that bone had some deep teeth marks in it :lol:

I know, I know. :roll:
But what to do when people keep asking the same questions? Give them different answers every time?
They keep stumbling from the outer darkness towards me, clutching their jigs, wittering and moaning.
Night of the Living Dead meets Groundhog Day.

 

[Jacob]

..... I feel that the edge looses its sharpness, so I pull it out of the plane. It doesn't need a complete grinding session, just a quick honing on my finest stone. How do I find the edge?

You hone it at 30º as near as you can judge and feel for the burr extending right across the full width of the face. And you look at it , hold it up to the light, whatever. Just use your common sense!

 

[GazPal]

Agree about the regular honing. We were taught to spend five minutes at the start of EVERY day in the workshop, quickly running all the tools we were going to use that day over the water stone. It keeps the cutting bevel spot on and you know that every tool will be at its best. It only needs a very light pass to keep them sharp..

Yep. We used to do pretty much the same, but typically also grabbed a few minutes at the end of each day to re-check and whet edges in prep for the following mornings activities. You're then able to hit the work running instead of having a flat start each time. We'd often save major sharpening and regrinding for break times..... especially saws and I've often sat myself down and re-sharpened & set a saw or two, plus checked my chisels and plane irons during my half hour breaks and still managed to have a sandwich and a cuppa, or three.

 

[Corneel]

..... I feel that the edge looses its sharpness, so I pull it out of the plane. It doesn't need a complete grinding session, just a quick honing on my finest stone. How do I find the edge?

You hone it at 30º as near as you can judge and feel for the burr extending right across the full width of the face. And you look at it , hold it up to the light, whatever. Just use your common sense!

So, first I do a test hone. Then try to feel the burr. When I don't feel the bur I must correct the angle. But: How do I re-find the corrected angle? Oh, and I really can't feel a burr when honing on a 8000 stone.

A quick google search gave me ideas to use the hollow grind for balancing the iron on the stone. That's not the same I guess as trying to make a secondary bevel freehand?

What I'm really looking for is a good video to get me started. I'm afraid common sense isn't enough.

 

[Jacob]

..... I feel that the edge looses its sharpness, so I pull it out of the plane. It doesn't need a complete grinding session, just a quick honing on my finest stone. How do I find the edge?

You hone it at 30º as near as you can judge and feel for the burr extending right across the full width of the face. And you look at it , hold it up to the light, whatever. Just use your common sense!

So, first I do a test hone. Then try to feel the burr. When I don't feel the bur I must correct the angle. But: How do I re-find the corrected angle? Oh, and I really can't feel a burr when honing on a 8000 stone.

A quick google search gave me ideas to use the hollow grind for balancing the iron on the stone. That's not the same I guess as trying to make a secondary bevel freehand?

What I'm really looking for is a good video to get me started. I'm afraid common sense isn't enough.

Pretend you are on a desert island with nobody about to ask and you have to escape by making a boat which will be impossible unless you can sharpen a plane blade freehand on an oil stone at 30º ish. You'd pull yourself together and get it sorted in minutes! Or die.
It's proactive - you have to do it, and look at and think about what you are doing.
Somehow it's like teaching people to walk, who haven't actually lost the ability but have just talked themselves out of it and gone into a trance.