Grinding Chisels & Plane irons

[CHJ]

For the Record:

If you check the Profile for: Wiljoy

Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:26 am

Posts: One (1)

Last visited: Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:33 am

And observed his Avatar:

You may come to the conclusion, one which I can confirm, that the individual registered from Adelaide South Australia.
A google of his user name no doubt will show the other forums he is a member of, (Hint)

I suggest that he has either achieved his purpose or is pulling even more of his hair out after following the results of his post.

Caution should always be applied when putting 2 and 2 together that an erroneous answer of 5 is not the result.

For those that are not happy with the input from a particular member, what is wrong with the "Ignore function" built into the forum. I know this will not stop quotes from displaying but at least it will avoid you having to read a view or opinion you do not subscribe to in the first instance.

 

[Paul Chapman]

For those that are not happy with the input from a particular member, what is wrong with the "Ignore function" built into the forum.

Unfortunately, Chas, it's only a partial solution. It does nothing to stop the frequent trolling on certain threads, which stifles debate and has, imo, put off a lot of valuable contributors from posting.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[CHJ]

Unfortunately, Chas, it's only a partial solution. It does nothing to stop the frequent trolling on certain threads, which stifles debate and has, imo, put off a lot of valuable contributors from posting.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

I fully understand Paul and personally do get frustrated at the childish bickering and come-backs, but with my Mod hat on I have to read (I don’t get an option to ignore) all of a thread and although I perceive behavior much like a Terrier we had, who always had to have the last yap, putting the animal to sleep was hardly appropriate, and threads taken on a whole often have two sides that are very similarly balanced in regards to the overall antagonistic response count if read from the beginning.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Yes, you have a very difficult job, Chas. Your efforts are much appreciated.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

... and threads taken on a whole often have two sides that are very similarly balanced in regards to the overall antagonistic response count if read from the beginning.

That's true, but when one side refuses to acknowledge the legitimacy of the other's arguement (in any thread, not just in this one)...this is when the antagonism escalates to boiling point with the constant 'needling' :evil: I'm quite happy to acknowledge when I'm in the wrong or my views are seen as 'off piste' but it needs to be a two way process - Rob

 

[gus3049]

I have come very late to this thread and have read it right through with great interest.

My wife's niece has adopted a young girl and it appears that she has 'anger management issues'. When I were a boy we would have said she was an aggressive little b.gger. (hammer)

It seem quite a few have escaped the net of the luvvies who try and fix our personality problems.

However, when I was at college (musical instrument making) I was taught to hone my chisels by hand and still do it as it is quick, easy once you get the hang of it and I challenge anyone to get a better edge once the cutting bevel is put on with the water stone. I do, though, have a jig. I use it for certain chisels that are too big or rather heavy for ease with the hand.

Both methods have their place and I cannot see it matters how any result is achieved if it works for you (subject to the usual safety issues of course)

 

[Racers]

Hi,

My son has dyspraxia my wife has a benign tremor in her right hand, both will find freehand sharpening nearly impossible.
There must be other conditions that make tasks that able bodied people consider easy very difficult.


Pete

 

[clk230]

Pete , your quite right BUT trying to bring disabilities into this sort of disscussion is wrong in my view .

 

[Paul Chapman]

Pete , your quite right BUT trying to bring disabilities into this sort of disscussion is wrong in my view .

Why :? Disabled people need to sharpen their tools as well.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Racers]

Hi, clk230

I am just pointing out that not every body can freehand shapen, which some people fail to understand.

Are you saying woodworking is only for the able bodied?

Pete

 

[jimi43]

Pete , your quite right BUT trying to bring disabilities into this sort of disscussion is wrong in my view .

Why :? Disabled people need to sharpen their tools as well.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Absolutely! The nature of the disabilities relates to whether the persons concerned are able to hone freehand....and it is totally relevant to bring this up.

Jim

 

[clk230]

please don't take my comment out of context , i did say i agree with Pete ,but the problem with bringing disabilities into any discussion is that every disability is different and may require a different approach to most every day to day tasks , you could use it in every single thing were someone uses the words ' easy or simple etc' .

AND no i am not saying only able bodied people should do woodwork as long as its carried out safely ,if you knew me you wouldn't even make that comment.

 

[dunbarhamlin]

Watch Larry Williams' moulding plane vids - tremors are no bar to freehand sharpening, just an excuse not to try.
I intermittently have severe tremors, which can make tying shoelaces, drinking tea or typing rather frustrating (just not going to happen lol) - but still freehand sharpen (I wouldn't however wield a chisel in anger when they're bad - red isn't my favourite colour )

Edit: I consider my tremors a handicap - not a disabilty - they set the fences a little high, but don't stop me trying.

 

[bosshogg]

I have come very late to this thread and have read it right through with great interest.

My wife's niece has adopted a young girl and it appears that she has 'anger management issues'. When I were a boy we would have said she was an aggressive little b.gger. (hammer)

It seem quite a few have escaped the net of the luvvies who try and fix our personality problems.

However, when I was at college (musical instrument making) I was taught to hone my chisels by hand and still do it as it is quick, easy once you get the hang of it and I challenge anyone to get a better edge once the cutting bevel is put on with the water stone. I do, though, have a jig. I use it for certain chisels that are too big or rather heavy for ease with the hand.

Both methods have their place and I cannot see it matters how any result is achieved if it works for you (subject to the usual safety issues of course)

+1 to that...bosshogg

 

[Fromey]

Well Mr Wiljoy, 81 from Adelaide SA (my home town by the way). Doctors in your youth used to recommend smoking as good for your health. You can pick any of millions of other examples where the past got it wrong. The argument is one of the Sophist's oldest tricks. State some premises that are true (people used to freehand sharpen) and extrapolate that to a logical argument (there is no need for anything else other than freehand sharpening). Any book on critical thinking will show you the error of this. Politicians are experts in its use.

As to the 5 pages of banter after the original post, you've gotta love the Internet.

 

[Jacob]

Well Mr Wiljoy, 81 from Adelaide SA (my home town by the way). Doctors in your youth used to recommend smoking as good for your health. You can pick any of millions of other examples where the past got it wrong. The argument is one of the Sophist's oldest tricks. State some premises that are true (people used to freehand sharpen) and extrapolate that to a logical argument (there is no need for anything else other than freehand sharpening). Any book on critical thinking will show you the error of this. Politicians are experts in its use.

As to the 5 pages of banter after the original post, you've gotta love the Internet.

Somewhat unsophisticated sophistry here. :roll:
A book on critical thinking might show you the error of this, if you were able to understand it!
Have a look in your book anyway - there will probably be a technical term for attacking someone's case by first misrepresenting it.

Nobody is saying there is no need for anything else other than freehand sharpening.
What many are saying is that it is extremely useful and more people should try it before giving up pathetically. This isn't an "extrapolation"; it's tried and tested by many people every day.

 

[GazPal]

Well Mr Wiljoy, 81 from Adelaide SA (my home town by the way). Doctors in your youth used to recommend smoking as good for your health. You can pick any of millions of other examples where the past got it wrong. The argument is one of the Sophist's oldest tricks. State some premises that are true (people used to freehand sharpen) and extrapolate that to a logical argument (there is no need for anything else other than freehand sharpening). Any book on critical thinking will show you the error of this. Politicians are experts in its use.

As to the 5 pages of banter after the original post, you've gotta love the Internet.

Critique of a persons perspective on honing due to age? Puzzling, as well as disrespectful, but I very much doubt your reaction would be the same if said person were a published author on sharpening technique. One point you made was particularly incorrect. This being "People used to freehand sharpen".

Although I agree with the use of honing guides, many more craftsmen are trained to freehand HONE or whet their irons and blades, as this is the quickest means toward achieving desired end results, than those who utilise honing guides. This point sadly appears to lack acknowledgement by many here. One fundamental aspect in learning a craft is mastery of tool maintenance and sharpening, for without keen edges we cannot produce flowing work or aim to achieve high end results safely.

Far more focus should be spent upon this aspect, rather than arguing whether or not the use of honing guides or freehand is best, although learning how to freehand whet an edge is a skill one will never lose or forget to place in ones toolbox when going on site. :wink: Learning to trust hand : eye co-ordination is a skill one never loses and one means of aquiring such skill is to freehand one edge in every three whetted. Skill is soon aquired in accurately whetting an edge and you're then more than capable of working with or without guides.

In terms of addressing whether or not someone suffers a debilitating condition preventing the adoption of freehand sharpening skills, levels of ability vary from person to person and they're just as free to choose their technique/methods as the next man/woman. I suffer from severe rheumatoid arthritis which led to premature retirement from the trade through joint deformity in the fingers of both hands, yet I prefer freehand over guided honing. This is because it would prove more difficult for me to set an iron/blade into a guide than work freehand.

 

[Jacob]

I hesitate to join the discussion abt disability but I would expect freehand to be easier for someone with a problem. It's more relaxed and you can alter your hand positions.

 

[GazPal]

I hesitate to join the discussion abt disability but I would expect freehand to be easier for someone with a problem. It's more relaxed and you can alter your hand positions.

Hi Jacob,

I'd honestly not hesitate in discussing disability whenever the subject is relevant, because woodworking is not exclusive to the able bodied.

Yes, honing jigs can limit ones facility to adjust grip during use, but I'd not exclude them from use unless problems were encountered.

Hand problems such as the ones I suffer make working as comfortably as possible an absolute necessity. No matter which method of honing is adopted, the best means is the one a person finds most comfortable and is at most ease using. A little experimentation regarding methods is possibly the best route forward until one finds one best suiting ones given circumstances.

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I cannot whet an edge using a jig any quicker or more comfortably than I can freehand one. Partly because my hands cramp, but primarily because my hands have no screws or angle gauges to faff around with and I'm at a stage where I can hone an edge without putting much - if any - thought into it. How? Practise. :wink: It shouldn't and doesn't take long for an individual to learn freehand honing, but you do need to be willing to practise and learn from mistakes. During my apprentice days I used to practise honing during my spare time, watching tv mostly, until it became second nature. It's all part of becoming familiar around the tools with which you work, learning how they work best, but something seldom find written in text books surrounding mastery of a given craft, but proves to be valuable time spent aquiring/enhancing skills.

Perhaps I'm old school, but one thing that was drilled into us apprentices during our early days was for us not to rely upon jigs and machinery to do the work for us. This was in spite of having others more qualified than ourselves using machinery to carry out the various tasks we were given to carry out with hand tools. We learned the basics without reliance upon aids, with the principle reason being the fact we'd be unable to function properly if a jig were damaged/lost or a piece of machinery broke down leaving us no option but to use hand tools. An entire workshop would be at risk of being drawn to a stand still if a moulding machine broke down and we were unable to fall back on using our hand tooling skills. The same can be said if one comes to rely too heavily upon sharpening aids and one is unable to work freehand.

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[Jacob]

........ one thing that was drilled into us apprentices during our early days was for us not to rely upon jigs and machinery to do the work for us. This was in spite of having others more qualified than ourselves using machinery to carry out the various tasks we were given to carry out with hand tools. We learned the basics without reliance upon aids, .....
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Same for me (though I was never an apprentice). The big road to Damascus revelation was how much could be done with so little.
I admire the green woodwork brigade - now doing it with even less!