Gouge terminology!

[gasmansteve]

Hi all
I am a bit confused as to what exactly is a spindle gouge. Reading various books, what I think is a spindle gouge is referred to as a `bowl gouge` and also more confusingly as a `spindle bowl gouge`. The Americans seem to refer to my interpretation of a spindle gouge as a bowl gouge too. I have a spindle gouge and a bowl gouge and they don`t look at all similar, the spindle gouge has the finger nail profile and the bowl gouge a completely different one. I also see terms such as `a roughing out bowl gouge` :? .
Steve

 

[NickWelford]

I think the profile is not relevant, Steve - you can grind them to suit yourself - it's more to do with the cross-section - the flute is larger and the cross-section of the 'meat' more uniform in a spindle gouge - on a bowl gouge, the flute is smaller and there is more substance / strength in the metal, particularly beneath the flute. In cutting a bowl, there are times when you cannot avoid being some way over the tool rest and need the extra strength and weight - it doesn't happen so often on spindle turning. However that said, I use a bowl gouge quite often when turning spindles - never the other way round.
Roughing gouges are all spindle gouges by the way - look at the cross-section.......

 

[TEP]

Mornin' Steve.

You don't half come up wiv some questions. :wink:

UK
I'm no authority but first you must realise that different countries have different names for tools and the sizes of said tools.

Roughing gouge is normally used on spindle work only and is usually a forged blade. ie A flat piece of HSS forged to a U shape, they can be anything from 3/4" - 1 1/2" wide.

Spindle gouge is usually a ground out HSS bar, the ground out groove is almost the width of the bar and is quite shallow about quarter of the bar, and as it name implies it is used for spindle work only. Sizing a spindle gouge you use the bar size. ie 3/8" would mean a bar dia of 3/8".

Bowl gouge is a ground HSS bar but the flute is only about half the bar width wide, and can go as deep as 3/4s the way into the bar. This flute shape is designed to give the gouge strength to reach over the rest further without vibrating. Now come the confusing bit, when buying a bowl gouge you buy by size BUT you use the flute width #-o . So when you buy a 3/8" bowl gouge the bar dia. would be approx. 1/2" confusing I know but I believe that is how it is in UK. I think they have different ways of sizing gouges in the USA, but for ease stick with UK for now.

Some turners talk of 'roughing bowl gouges' to my knowledge there is no such thing (I stand to be corrected) but some do use expressions like this when giving demo's, probably cause it sounds cool. To them! Although a few will use a heavy gouge to rouge the bowl to shape, then resort to a smaller gouge for the finishing cuts, but to do this you would need a powerful lathe otherwise you could stop it taking aggressive cuts.

Once experienced you can use a spindle gouge on the outside of a bowl, and a bowl gouge when spindle turning, all with care. Roughing gouge only on spindle work, never on bowls!

PS the shape of the cutting tips on all these gouges are generally down to personal preference, and experience. Although with spindle gouges everyone says they should have a 'fingernail profile', to which I agree. Bowl gouges can have ground back wings (similar to a fingernail) or just a 45% bevel tip, but a ground back bowl gouge is not easy to use the first time.

PPS Don't forget there are not many turning tools which come pre-shaped and ready to use from the makers, they all need regrinding before use.
That's my little bit, hope it helps.

 

[Hans]

Hi Steve,

I think Tam has covered the gouges pretty well.
The only addition I think useful is the split in spindle gouges in traditional forged gouges and ground 'detail' gouges.
And then among the forged gouges there is a marked difference between the German or continental style that is much heavier than the English traditional gouge.

You can find an overview of gouges by Henry Taylor or Robert Sorby
Traditional continental gouges are still made by Carl Heidtmann
Hans

 

[gasmansteve]

Phew thanks for the info!.
I was watching a dvd by a bloke in the states who referred to his gouges differently to what I`ve learnt from books like Keith`s `Foundation course`.
It seems that with turning there is no hard and fast way of doing anything and the phrase `If it feels good do it` springs to mind. I read of some experienced folk who can do most if not all their turning with a skew chisel something I have not even looked at yet, all part of the learning curve I suppose.
Thanks again
Steve
Ps Sorry Tam I won `t ask such plonker questions next time
(although I can`t guarantee that :twisted: )

 

[Bodrighy]

Ps Sorry Tam I won `t ask such plonker questions next time
(although I can`t guarantee that :twisted: )

Don't apologise, we all ask questions like this at one point or another. Fortunately there are a lot of very patient experts willing to share their knowledge with us or we'd never learn anything

Pete

 

[Anonymous]

Steve, the only Plonker questions are the ones you haven't asked :wink:

 

[TEP]

Mornin' again Steve, one thing I should have added to my last. There is so much advice and instruction around out there, and all of it is fairly valid.

Because turning is such a individual craft, and there are so many different ways of doing a similar task. I would suggest that until you gain some experience, and get in some practice, stick with one source of information/instruction, otherwise you can become totally overloaded/bogged down with knowledge.

I believe turning is about 75% practical work, and 25% knowledge, so get turning and you will find that it will soon come to you. Once you get some experience behind you, you will then understand what people are telling you and will be able to decide whether their style is for you or not.

PS - You can ask as many plonker questions as you like, I only know the answers because not so long ago I was asking the same.

 

[Mark Hancock]

Mornin' Steve.


when buying a bowl gouge you buy by size BUT you use the flute width #-o . So when you buy a 3/8" bowl gouge the bar dia. would be approx. 1/2" confusing I know but I believe that is how it is in UK. I think they have different ways of sizing gouges in the USA, but for ease stick with UK for now.

Tam

I always understood the UK method of sizing a gouge was from the inside of the flute to the outside of the bar whereas the US method is the bar diameter :?: So as you say a UK 3/8" gouge is a US 1/2"

 

[TEP]

Hi Mark, I think I was confusing myself when I wrote that.

I was trying to explain to Steve how our gouges are measured in the UK. As I said I stand to be corrected, but I understood that a spindle gouge was measured across the bar dia. where as a bowl gouge was measured across the flute width. I don't really know how they measure abroad, but I did know it was different to us in UK.