Gluing kitchen doors - Titebond 3

[BarbaraT]

Hi all

I've dowel jointed some planks of elm with the plan to router them flat and make some kitchen doors..
I made a test one and it looks like the glue has failed and the joint has opened up. (see photo below)

I have heard good things about superglue.. I'm just not convinced I'm fast enough to assemble it before the glue cures.

My new plan is too router a vee tongue and groove, it just seems a bit of a shame.. but I'm guessing this will allow the wood to move and not let light through..
There will be some planks behind to try and keep them flat..

Is there a recommendation on the max plank size some of them are up to 350mm wide they have all been kiln-dried and stored for 6 months.
Do I still need to cut them down to 150mm, and alternate the grain?

I'll double check the moisture level when i get chance...

 

[Jamesc]

I have not had problems with Titebond on edge joints like yours. Was the joint perfect before you glued it?
It may be just the phot, but it appears the edges weren't perfectly square.

 

[Cabinetman]

So is it Superglue or Titebond? Anyway something went wrong, it does look as though the edge might not have been square, yes you’re right about cutting them smaller and alternating the cups and bridges. I try to stick to 5” widths but obviously it depends how that works out with the wood you have and the job to be done, and as you say how dry it is.
I think I would cut straight through that joint and start again, I have used a biscuit router cutter in the past, they’re not dear and then use biscuits to keep the boards level when cramping.
I always use blue Evostick, gives you plenty time and never had a joint fail.
Best of luck and good to see you working again.
Ian

 

[BarbaraT]

It's Titebond 3... also has about 5 dowels along the length.. I'm not fast enough to assemble 3 planks, 10 dowels, 9 cabinet clamps and 4 clamping cauls, all before the super glue sets..

It was cut with a plunge saw on a track, and although not invisible there wasn't anywhere you could even slide a strip of paper in between.
The step you can see is as the planks aren't the same thickness.
The other side is alot better... but the joint has still opened up a bit. (see photo below)

This hasn't been cleaned up so you can see the spots of titebond..

I haven't used blue evo stick for many years.. It's PVA based the same as titebond so I'm not convinced the results will be that different.

 

[HOJ]

I've never had a problem with TB3, it is my preferred glue, more so because I generally work in Oak and the TB3 gives a dark glue line.

My observation from your pictures is that you only have beads of glue showing, when I edge joint boards I aim for a continuous line of glue squeeze out on both faces, may be you suffered from glue starvation.

One other point, I get you used the track saw to cut the joint, but the boards don't look particularly flat, that could have caused the edge/s to not be absolutely square to them, I would face them up, close, if not to finished size, and at least all the same thickness, then shoot the joint, rather than try and face them after, you would also have had a reference face to set your dowel positions off as well.

 

[Cabinetman]

I've never had a problem with TB3, it is my preferred glue, more so because I generally work in Oak and the TB3 gives a dark glue line.

My observation from your pictures is that you only have beads of glue showing, when I edge joint boards I aim for a continuous line of glue squeeze out on both faces, may be you suffered from glue starvation.

One other point, I get you used the track saw to cut the joint, but the boards don't look particularly flat, that could have caused the edge/s to not be absolutely square to them, I would face them up, close, if not to finished size, and at least all the same thickness, then shoot the joint, rather than try and face them after, you would also have had a reference face to set your dowel positions off as well.

Why do you want a dark glueline? Maybe that’s not what you meant. Personally I find the Titebond glues too runny hence all the squeeze out you mentioned, I’m sure it doesn’t help with people’s nervousness when gluing, but that’s nothing to do with this thread.
I think the problems here are that the boards are probably cupped which makes getting a square edge problematic and the use of a tracksaw to give a glueing edge especially from a cupped board is giving you problems.
My method is to plane one board edge square in relation to the edges on the hollow side of the board, don’t use the outwardly curved side to square from. Then put that board in the vice and plane the edge on the next board to fit it by putting it on top of the one in the vice and looking for daylight between them, if the edges aren’t square to the average of cups and bridges as laid out flat on the bench you will have a terrible job glueing them up as they will slide all over the place when you cramp them up, this is another reason people use biscuits. But it’s better to get the edges right instead.
Of course it’s so much easier if you have a planer thicknesser- still need to plane the joints but you will have flat boards to work from.
Ian
Ps, you said you find it difficult to glue all that lot up which is understandable, just do two boards at a time.

 

[BravoNovember]

As above, that could be a dry joint.
The only time I’ve had that happen was when I jointed the boards with a hand plane and made the silly mistake of waxing the plane sole just before the final couple of strokes. That joint failed.

 

[BarbaraT]

I can make sure I cut them all cupped.. I only have a 4 inch vice and trying to hand-plane 30 doors (90 planks) is going to be painful, I'm also getting really a clean cut with the blades i'm using, this is some plywood that loves to splinter.

It looked great when I first glued it together.
If the cut wasn't quite at 90 degrees (cupped board), when I clamped it square, I could have squirted all the glue out of that side of the joint..
this then opened up..

I think the problems here are that the boards are probably cupped which makes getting a square edge problematic and the use of a tracksaw to give a glueing edge especially from a cupped board is giving you problems.

Why do you want a dark glueline?

I don't particularly.... I just selected Glue test and I seem to remember it doing reasonably well across the board.
It's elm so not particularly light, I also used it for glueing dovetails, with no issue.

you will have a terrible job glueing them up as they will slide all over the place when you cramp them up

They have plenty of 10mm dowels holding them in place to keep the alignment while the glue is drying..
I also don't have a biscuit jointer or a planar thicknesser, but I do have a router sled.. should look like this when I put it together

Ps, you said you find it difficult to glue all that lot up which is understandable, just do two boards at a time.

Its fine with PVA glue.. I just don't think even biscuit joints would be possible with superglue..I've also got about 30 doors to make..


I still think I'm better off feeding them through the router table and adding a tongue and groove and small Vee.. at least then if they do move slightly in the future it will look more like a feature
Something like this..

I just need to get one side flat when clamping.. or when I machine it flat I'm going to loose half the vee's

 

[Cabinetman]

I’m not sure why you keep referring to it a superglue. You need a Pve glue for this job, no wonder you were short of time!

 

[BarbaraT]

I haven't tried with superglue, the only reason I mentioned it, is that in tests it often out performs pva

 

[HOJ]

feeding them through the router table and adding a tongue and groove and small Vee

You need to get your boards to finished thickness and width before you run any moulding or T & G's, honestly it will be complete failure if you try to do it after.

I would also mention that TB3 has a longer open time than a lot of PVA type glues.

Why do you want a dark glueline?

I think that was a question to me: Just works for me, I've used other glues that either tend to dry white or clear, If there are any "nano gaps" it looks awful, I also use Cascamite, and add a colouring to that, again to stop it showing white.

Perhaps its my joinery that needs improving!!

 

[BearTricks]

I haven't tried with superglue, the only reason I mentioned it, is that in tests it often out performs pva

PVA will form a bond stronger than the wood itself. Perfectly fine for what you’re doing. Superglue shouldn’t be a consideration.

I’ve been cutting down scrap to make some very rough workshop storage recently. None of my cuts are perfect 90 degrees and the wood is a bit grubby. I’ve used Titebond 2 without really paying attention to getting a good glue line and it has glued up as well as anything else I’ve ever done, just for reference. Glue wants to stick.

 

[TRITON]

I'd a joint fail once. It just fell apart as I tried to light it.

 

[Keith 66]

To be honest your problem is the timber. Elm is well known for warping & moving about often years after its been cut & machined, even small changes in moisture content will set the timber moving.
Titebond 3 is a good glue & i use it myself but it can creep under strain & let go, Elm timber would put it under that kind of strain.
How long was it glued & clamped up for? If just overnight i would say the glue wasnt cured in the joint.
Forget superglue, Cyanoacrylate glues are brittle & not suitable for jobs like this.
Best would be a slightly flexible epoxy like Gflex.