Flattening Lie-nielsen planes

[Dazzy]

I would like to know would anyone lap the sole of a No: 5 1/2 lie-nielsen plane that comes out of the box. I know that they are well machined but are the soles truly flat.
If lapping is the answer then what is the best way.

 

[shim20]

i wouldnt bother a LN plane will have bemade flat enough. i have a stanley no6 my fav plane always using it years old, never laped it etc. never needed to.

 

[wizer]

If your LN plane is not flat... SEND IT BACK!

 

[Mr Ed]

I have had a LN 5 1/2 for years and used it straight from the box. It has always worked perfectly so I never felt the need to lap the sole.

Is the sole truly flat? Probably not, but I'm not sure I could guarantee that lapping would make it any flatter. How flat is flat enough is a bit of an esoteric argument - if it works to a performance level you are happy with then go with it I say.

Cheers, Ed

 

[Karl]

How flat is flat enough is a bit of an esoteric argument - if it works to a performance level you are happy with then go with it I say.

Cheers, Ed

Ah - I posed that argument a good while back!

My concern with the presumption that the LN soles are flat is that, if the sole isn't flat, the end user may not realise either the problem or the full potential of the tool. For example, I had a LN 62, which performed terribly. It turned out to have a significant hollow around the mouth area (when referenced against a reliable straight edge). So I sent it back to Axminster (great customer service, as usual).

If one is buying high quality planes, I would also recommend buying a quality straight edge to check the flatness of sole. If it doesn't meet the flatness criteria of the manufacturer, send it back. If it does, then it is flat enough.

HTH

Cheers

Karl

 

[tnimble]

So far all the LN planes I've checked where considarable flat (I own a LN shoulder plane myself). The only things that can be improved and should look at with LN are the back of the blade, the chipbreaker and all parts for little burrs left at corners (inner corner mostly).

If a LN plane has a concave or convex sole or side that are not at a 90 sent it back to the stor or contact Tom.

 

[Anonymous]

LN planes are flattened at the factory after manufacture and are guaranteed flat.
I have 11 bench and block LNs and have never needed to flatten any of them from new except for a bronze #3 (bronze moves more than iron).

Always try a plane before even considering falttening the sole and also think of its 'proper' or original use.

A 5.5 is a jack, not a smoother and so the sole does not need to be super flat as you will be taking medium sized shavings with it, circa 4 thou., not finishing a piece.

 

[dunbarhamlin]

Always try a plane before even considering falttening the sole and also think of its 'proper' or original use.

A 5.5 is a jack, not a smoother and so the sole does not need to be super flat as you will be taking medium sized shavings with it, circa 4 thou., not finishing a piece.

Agree about trying it first, but believe the marketed purpose is not relevant, except perhaps in deciding whether a purchase is technically 'fit for purpose' when considering how to resolve an issue (can't see legalese being necessary with LN, LV or Clico though - they all stand by their product.)
What matters is your intended use. My 5 1/2" is a super-smoother, and so I expect to be able to take <0.001" shavings with it.
My 5 however is used as a jack or short fore plane, and so need only cope with a coarser cut. That it can take a finer cut is not important - not because it is marketed as a jack, but because I use it as one.

Cheers
Steve

 

[wizer]

One also assumes there is a chance of invalidating the warranty. If you try to lap it and cock it up or another fault develops elsewhere (unlikely, I know) you are stuck with a very expensive door stop.

 

[wizer]

oh well, DC was just on the TV saying that he spends 10mins flattening an LN out of the box.....

EDIT: then it went on to interview Tom Lie Nielson, who said a tool that doesn't work out of the box, isn't a tool.

 

[custard]

Lie-Nielsen's quoted parameters are all plane sole's flat within 0.03mm, a little over a thou of an inch. I've got four LN bench planes, 4 1/2, 5 1/2, 7, and their low angle jack. All four met those specifications, and the 7 was perfectly flat against my engineer's straight edge.

However, that doesn't mean that hand lapping can't improve the performance of LN planes, I think it can.

Firstly Karl Holtey claims his planes are flat to less than half a thou, and he says that's the standard required to consistently produce a one thou or less shaving. Now, my "standard/fine" shaving is about two thou, and ordinarily a LN plane delivers that straight from the box after honing the blade. But sometimes I do want a one thou shaving, and to achieve that consistently will, just as Karl Holtey says, require further lapping.

Secondly, no cast plane will be stable, so just because a LN plane delivers satisfactory two thou performance straight from the box, doesn't mean it will continue to do so into the future. Consequently I check and re-lap all my planes once a year as required. All Souls Day might be an appropriate and memorable diary date for this maintanence!

 

[Mr Ed]

Beyond my earlier comments that if it works to a performance level you are happy with then why mess with it, I believe there are a few other key issues to consider;

1. How many of us own a straight edge or reference surface that can be guaranteed for accuracy (and is regularly calibrated to confirm this) that we can use for checking?

2. How do you know that the float glass or other material used for the lapping is flat. Again if it is a certified reference surface then you know, but otherwise its hard to be sure - maybe you could check it with your straightedge (but see (1) above...)

3. Can you guarantee that the lapping can be done without rocking and creating a convexity in the sole - obviously it can be done but there is risk there and how do you know that you can make it better than it was to start with?

What I'm getting at here is that I am unconvinced that most of us have the equipment to verify and then correct the kind of deviations that get talked about. Sure if we are talking about correcting major bumps/hollows on an old plane; that is readily achievable, but minor corrections to new high accuracy planes I am not so sure.

Its misleading talking in engineering tolerances without the apparatus being used in the processes being certified to a corresponding level of accuracy.

Cheers, Ed

 

[wizer]

you could of course buy a Clifton plane at a woodowrking show. Where Mick Hudson carries a AA Grade Granite plate to check for flatness. This way, you are certain your plane is flat from day one.

 

[custard]

Ed, I take your point, but whether or not it's all worth it depends on what kind of work you're doing, what materials you're using, and to what level of accuracy you're working. What's right for one woodworker may be overkill for another.

A 24" Grade B (bench grade) straight edge isn't cheap, but you can pick up a certificated example for £50-60, this together with a engineer's bench grade square and some Moore & Wright feeler gauges forms the basis of the "calibration kit" that I use to check winding sticks, tool surfaces, machine beds, bench squares, float glass etc. What can I say, it works for me.

 

[tnimble]

Besides having certificated measurement and reference equipment it's also crutial of correct usage, storage, maintenance and cleaning to keep them accurate. Even a slab of granite suspended incorrectly will be a bad reference over time.

 

[Jake]

And most of all, one has to maintain one's tin foil hat to a very high standard to ensure that stray radiation does not interfere with the brain's ability to make best use of these super-precision tools.

Alright, I have to confess to having bought some precision engineering stuff too along the way, but it can get a little out of hand and distracting, no?

 

[Mr Ed]

And most of all, one has to maintain one's tin foil hat to a very high standard to ensure that stray radiation does not interfere with the brain's ability to make best use of these super-precision tools.

Alright, I have to confess to having bought some precision engineering stuff too along the way, but it can get a little out of hand and distracting, no?

Absolutely right, if you're not careful you can disappear up your own buttocks in the esoteric pursuit of accuracy, when what you're supposed to be doing is making stuff that looks good and works properly.

Cheers, Ed

 

[andyavast]

oh well, DC was just on the TV saying that he spends 10mins flattening an LN out of the box.....

EDIT: then it went on to interview Tom Lie Nielson, who said a tool that doesn't work out of the box, isn't a tool.

I visited David Charlesworths workshop recently and the subject of flattening plane soles inevitably came up. He showed me one of his Lie-Nielsen 5 1/2's and told me he 'flattened' the sole to polish out the surface grinding marks. Perhaps that is what he meant on his DVD.

Andy

 

[custard]

Alright, I have to confess to having bought some precision engineering stuff too along the way, but it can get a little out of hand and distracting, no?

I take your point. There's a spectrum of woodwork that runs from cheerfully nailing bits of chipboard together...to the school of extreme cabinetmaking that's a cross between precision engineering and surgery. And we're all free to locate ourselves wherever on that spectrum we want.

But in the same way that we tend to label any driver who drives 5mph faster than us as insane and 5mph slower as a Sunday driver, there's a similar tendency in craftsmanship to say that anyone who looks for a bit more precision than us is a deluded fetishist, and anyone who is satisfied with a bit less is an amateurish hacker!

 

[Jake]

I take your point. There's a spectrum of woodwork that runs from cheerfully nailing bits of chipboard together...to the school of extreme cabinetmaking that's a cross between precision engineering and surgery. And we're all free to locate ourselves wherever on that spectrum we want.

OK, but the spectrum reflects your bias (in the sense of interests/approach to your craft etc).

I am sure there are plenty of makers of exquisitely crafted high-end work who don't have the same preoccupation with engineering levels of precision in tools.

I'm also sure you are right that often the 'engineering tendency' will express itself in the type of end-product produced, but I've seen a lot of that stuff which I wouldn't put at the top of a (my) scale of merit.