finishing advice for speaker stands

[sebinho]

Hello,

I'm in the processes of building my first project, two supports for a pair of loudspeakers, the design of which was posted here:

feedback-on-first-design-and-project-t97773-15.html

For the base of each support (the legs and stretchers) I want a simple natural finish. For the tops, I'm still undecided, perhaps a natural finish or painted bright glossy orange.

The wood is called "jequitibá" - it has a density of 0.78g/cm3. The wood was very well sawn when I received it. I have a Stanley no. 80 cabinet scraper that I'm using a Stanley 102 block plane that I've used to tidy any frayed edges. You'll see in the photo below that I've already started to round the edges with a block plane.

This was the first piece that I started working on and I've stopped rounding the edges because I realised it made it hard to mark the depth of the grooves that I'm cutting. I'll finish rounding them later. You'll also notice that there is a line of raised grain (is that the technical term? Or is it run out?) on the long piece towards the right. I'm encountering this on some pieces and I can't always remove them using the no. 80 scraper. Does this mean the scraper is not sharp enough? I'm using a 45 degree able on the scraper blade, no burr.

I read somewhere that cabinet scrapers work better on harder wood. I tried on a piece of ipê (and extremely heavy and hard wood) that I have at home and surface became glass-like - but on the jequitibá, these raised regions sometimes appear.

I assume I'll just need to varnish the wood. Can anyone please suggest what type of varnish I'll need to use? I think I'd like a semi-gloss finish. I imagine the wood will darken with varnishing. Correct? Will I need to sand the wood before varnishing? If so, what grade paper should I use? I like the idea of not using paper, but if I can't get rid of these ridges, I may need to.

On the tops, and if I decide to paint them, I may do this with a roller, but I think what I would really like is to lacquer the tops. I don't want to buy any spray equipment and if anyone can suggest a good online guide somewhere for non-spray techniques, please let me know. I've haven't been to a paint shops yet to ask, perhaps there are aerosol lacquer kits out there.

The second photo is of the tops.

Thanks,

 

[ED65]

You'll also notice that there is a line of raised grain (is that the technical term? Or is it run out?) on the long piece towards the right.

That's tearout it looks like, unfortunately the first thing my eye went to upon seeing the picture. Woodworkers are like that

I think it's too late for this advice but since you're cutting halving joints you should ideally have dealt with this prior to cutting the halvings as the minor reduction in thickness from scraping and/or sanding can result in a loose fit with the corresponding piece.

I'm encountering this on some pieces and I can't always remove them using the no. 80 scraper. Does this mean the scraper is not sharp enough? I'm using a 45 degree able on the scraper blade, no burr.

Some woods want to tear out given the least chance, although using a scraper is usually a fairly safe way of tackling tearout it doesn't always work 100%.

I would add a light burr and see if it makes any difference, then increasing the burr and trying again if a light burr didn't do enough. Before you do that though I think you should try using the blade freehand and seeing if using a different angle (tilt I mean) makes a difference. When scraping with a sharp edge it can, sometimes very shallow works best.

I read somewhere that cabinet scrapers work better on harder wood.

Generally yes, and the more uniformly hard the better hence the excellent results you got on ipê. Some other hard woods don't scrape as well because they can have "crumbly" areas.

I assume I'll just need to varnish the wood. Can anyone please suggest what type of varnish I'll need to use?

I think the big unknown for us here is what's available in Brazil! A piece like this doesn't need an especially durable finish so really any varnish is probably good enough. But if you want maximum scratch resistance then look for a polyurethane.

For something like this you could just oil it if you can get the right kind of oil there. An oil finish is very easy to apply and to touch up in the future and will provide a subtle sheen once you've rubbed on enough coats.

I imagine the wood will darken with varnishing. Correct?

Usually yes but it varies a lot with varnish type and the wood species so you'll need to test.

Will I need to sand the wood before varnishing? If so, what grade paper should I use? I like the idea of not using paper, but if I can't get rid of these ridges, I may need to.

You sand if you need to sand. Often scraping or planing leaves the wood good enough that no further work is required (the surface is often better than any sanding can provide), but one good example of where you might need to sand is if you have areas of stubborn tearout.

The progression in smoothing wood can be expressed this way:

• Plane until you can't improve the surface any further.
• Scrape until you can't improve the surface any further.
• Sand if needed.

If you do need to sand I would start with 100 or 120 grit, then go to 150 and assess how the wood looks. If you're oiling you may want to sand further, to 220 or 240 grit perhaps although some people go much finer and say it does make a difference, but if you're applying varnish then you really don't need to go any finer than 150 or 180 grit.

BTW if you have to sand one area it can be wise to sand the entire project to unify how it takes the finish. This isn't always necessary so again it's best to test with your wood and your chosen finish.

 

[sebinho]

Thanks Ed65. I was in a furniture shop today and they had a few things in jequitibá. I took the following snap of the finish:

Not such a great shot, but I do like the finish. Could this be achieved with an oil?

Sorry for my ignorance, the only furniture oils that I know of here are the type that people put on household furniture, especially unvarnished furniture but not necessarily. The most popular brand is Peroba and they make a "peroba" oil (peroba is a tree but I don't know if the oil is actually from the tree or not) and also a cedar oil (cedro). They have a page in English:

http://www.peroba.com.br/en/produtos_oleo_moveis.php

Unfortunately I don't have any spare wood to do tests, but I can test the underside of the tops. Is it just a matter of apply the oil with a rag and polishing with a rag?

I forgot to mention that I am able to remove the tearout with the block plane, as long as I use it in a certain direction. I find it hard to guess the correct direction. I assumed it would be the direction in which rubbing ones finger on the surface feels the smoothest, but I remember being confounded by that theory more than once. Hard to tell visually too, for me.

I'll try the burr on the scraper as well.

I've also heard of people using oil, then wax - I've heard of this been done in lutherie. Would this be an option and give the wood a bit more shine, if shine is lacking?

 

[ED65]

Not such a great shot, but I do like the finish. Could this be achieved with an oil?

Can't say for sure from that pic, sorry. But yes, you can get a pretty respectable shine using oil, on a medium-hard wood it'll start to build up after coat three or four. With harder woods you'll get it after the first or second coat.

Sorry for my ignorance, the only furniture oils that I know of here are the type that people put on household furniture, especially unvarnished furniture but not necessarily. The most popular brand is Peroba and they make a "peroba" oil (peroba is a tree but I don't know if the oil is actually from the tree or not) and also a cedar oil (cedro).

I think these are all furniture polish, not finish. Over here cedar oil would always be just a polish to shine up furniture surfaces and from the description in English it seems that one is just like that.

If you can't get a drying oil don't worry about it, just go with varnish. It can be diluted a little and wiped on like an oil if you like and adds much more protection anyway. I only mentioned oiling as an option if, like in the UK and the US, you can walk into any hardware store and buy some drying oil (linseed oil or tung oil). Walnut oil can also be used for finishing, although it's slower to dry and usually costs more than you'd like for a purpose like this!

Is it just a matter of apply the oil with a rag and polishing with a rag?

Some people like to rub the oil on with their hands but yes, in essence that's it. You wipe on, wait a bit for it to soak in, then wipe away the excess and after that rub the surface down briskly.

I find it hard to guess the correct direction. I assumed it would be the direction in which rubbing ones finger on the surface feels the smoothest, but I remember being confounded by that theory more than once.

That would normally be the way to tell the ideal planing direction. What your fingers are feeling is what's called rising grain, where the wood grain (which is like tiny straws) is poking up out of the surface. Your finger skates over it if they're pointing away from you (this would correspond with "planing uphill") and catch on them if they're pointing towards you ("planing downhill"). If you need help visualising this have a look at the section Grain Direction on this page.

Hard to tell visually too, for me.

It can be very difficult to 'read' grain. It's something you can expect to get better at with experience, but just looking at the board's surface won't often tell you enough. Even pros will look at the side grain for guidance and run their fingers over the board to check for rising or falling grain direction.

One thing to be aware of, as on your piece of jequitibá it's not always nice and simple with grain all running in a single direction across the width of the board. Many tropical species are famous (infamous!) for having what's called reversing grain, also interlocking grain, which are both tricky to deal with as areas of grain running in one direction are immediately adjacent to, or surrounded by, grain running in a different direction.

Many woodworkers dealing with this kind of thing have gone down the road of throwing money at the problem by buying or making infill planes. Others experimented with high-angle smoothers, using the narrowest mouth possible. But all they had to do was learn to use the cap iron on normal plane properly, with scraping and sanding as backup if necessary

I've also heard of people using oil, then wax - I've heard of this been done in lutherie. Would this be an option and give the wood a bit more shine, if shine is lacking?

Yes. Adding shine is really the main reason for waxing, it really does very little else.

 

[sebinho]

If you can't get a drying oil don't worry about it, just go with varnish. It can be diluted a little and wiped on like an oil if you like and adds much more protection anyway. I only mentioned oiling as an option if, like in the UK and the US, you can walk into any hardware store and buy some drying oil (linseed oil or tung oil). Walnut oil can also be used for finishing, although it's slower to dry and usually costs more than you'd like for a purpose like this!

I've been living here for 9 years, I should know more, but I do at least know the word for linseed oil: "óleo de linhaça". That is definitely available, I was staring absent-mindedly at a big tin of it recently in a hardware store. So this will do the job? How many coats would you suggest? I need to let it dry fully between coats?

One thing to be aware of, as on your piece of jequitibá it's not always nice and simple with grain all running in a single direction across the width of the board. Many tropical species are famous (infamous!) for having what's called reversing grain, also interlocking grain, which are both tricky to deal with as areas of grain running in one direction are immediately adjacent to, or surrounded by, grain running in a different direction.

Yes, that's what I have been discovering! Last night I was planing a piece that had grain running north down one side of the face and south down the other. I think I'm getting better at planing and I'm more confident of getting it all smoothed out.

Thanks again!

 

[ED65]

That is definitely available, I was staring absent-mindedly at a big tin of it recently in a hardware store. So this will do the job? How many coats would you suggest?

Yes it'll do the job, many fine pieces of furniture were finished in linseed oil.

But to be specific, most people today use boiled linseed oil (BLO) which isn't boiled but has metallic driers added and is much faster drying, and probably hardens more fully too.

How many coats to use is a can of worms these days, some people insisting that any more than three is a waste of time while old woodworking books will say to put on more coats than that in just the first week. IMO you want at least 5-7 coats for something to look decent. A rule of thumb: once you've gotten a decent surface gloss you're nearly there, one more coat for security and you can can it done for now.

I need to let it dry fully between coats?

No actually you can't really. Oils like this cure by oxidising, if you wanted to wait for it to properly 'dry' between coats the next coat couldn't be applied for a month :lol:

How many coats and exactly how to apply them is the subject of a lot of debate these days, although in the past it was perfectly straightforward because everyone learned it from someone who'd been doing it all their working life. And they had the time and patience to do it that way. Here's one oft-quoted finishing schedule for linseed oil:

• 
  One coat a day for a week, one coat a week for a month, one coat a month for a year and then one coat per year for life.

As you can see they had more time to commit to this sort of thing back then! It's little wonder that when faster-drying varnishes became easily available they almost completely replaced linseed oil as a finish.

Yes, that's what I have been discovering! Last night I was planing a piece that had grain running north down one side of the face and south down the other. I think I'm getting better at planing and I'm more confident of getting it all smoothed out.

If you haven't tried skewing the plane do experiment with that. As always a nice sharp iron is helpful and a light cut will obviously help.

If you've heard of ribbon-stripe mahogany it's exactly like this, every board over the entire surface has stripes where the grain runs in opposite directions. And many modern sources say it's a nightmare to plane, you either have to use something specialised (i.e. expensive) or make a pact with the devil or something to tame it. Few people persevere with a regular plane, they either switch to a cabinet scraper or card scraper, or they just use sanding.

But with a conventional double-iron plane if you can get the setting of the cap iron just right you'll get very little or no tearout even when planing 180° to the grain direction, which makes planing wood like this far less stressful. Depending on the settings and the wood you may still get some but man, the difference between the cap iron set 'close' (1mm) and very close (under 0.5mm) is astounding.

Some people successfully set their cap irons even closer than this (under 0.1mm) and if you can get this to work you don't need to fear any amount of switching or interlocking grain, tearout is a thing of the past. But you do pay a penalty, the plane is far harder to push and on very hard woods it might prove impossible or at least too strenuous to be practical. That's when scrapers really prove their worth.

 

[sebinho]

Thanks again for your help Ed65, much appreciated. I'll give linseed oil a try. Since I'm labouring away with hand tools, I may as well drag things out a little further with some oils. Yes, getting the planes and scrapers well honed and set up is something I need to learn. I've been sharpening the blades by hand on a 100grit(?) carborundum stone -> 1000grit water stone -> slab of thick rawhide leather with some Brasso rubbed into it (only metal polish I could find). While I can get a 1" Marples chisel razor sharp very easily, I've had more trouble with the Stanley blades for some reason. I ordered a honing guide that should arrive in a week, so I hope that helps. Having lots of trouble getting my #3 plane set up, but I'll leave that topic for another post, if need be - it could be just that I've not had the blade sharp enough and I that I was testing it on extremely hard wood.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

ED - "the surface is often better than any sanding can provide"- that appears to have been proven not to be so. I read it here somewhere, but I can't remember where.

 

[ED65]

Welcome sebinho. Once you get your oil if you need pointers on application just shout, but oiling is pretty simple at heart. About the only thing that I think needs to be really emphasised is to wipe off all excess oil. This happens naturally if you rub the wood down well as the final stage of the process, but too often today people skimp on this step. The wood should feel dry when you're done and leave no oily residue if you wipe across the surface with your fingers.

 

[ED65]

ED - "the surface is often better than any sanding can provide"- that appears to have been proven not to be so. I read it here somewhere, but I can't remember where.

I was involved in the last discussion of this I think. I'm one of those who think it doesn't make as much difference as some adherents claim.

The wood's surface after scraping can be better, visibly more refined without question in many if not most cases. But please note that I didn't say it actually mattered, I was giving it as the reason you shouldn't or don't need to sand.

Sanding would do nothing to improve such a surface. At the common finishing grits it would obviously make the surface rougher since it would introduce scratches where previously there weren't any.

But whether this makes any practical difference comes down almost entirely to the finish that will be used. If you're using varnish or another film finish it's the great equaliser.

 

[yetloh]

Have you thought about using shellac? It's very easy to apply using a cloth and dries very quickly. Two or three coats are all you need and you can cut back or buff to any level of sheen you want. It is not the hardest or most water resistant of finishes but neither of these is important in something like a speaker stand. Should you get any scratches or abrasions shellac is on of the easiest finishes to repair bedause the alcohol which carries it disolves the surface of the original application so that any new shellac just blends in and becomes part of the original. People often suggest waxing a shellac finishes but I think this is a mistake. Much better to experiment and get the level of sheen you want on the finish itself. Any extra sheen added by wax will be only transient and you certainly won't want to keep waxing your speaker stands when you could be doing something much more interesting, like listening to music!

Jim

 

[No skills]

Wow, my never finished workbench legs appear to be made from the same timber (or something that's a real dead ringer for that timber).
I've always wondered what it was called

I can confirm it tears out like a pig I've not tried too hard to tidy them up but given the small amount of time using it I was just going to give up with any planing and just sand it to a reasonable finish.

Sorry that's no help but I had to post as I recognised the timber

 

[sebinho]

Thanks yetloh and no skills. Too late for shellac I'm afraid. I applied the first coat of linseed oil early yesterday morning. I was pleased the way the wood darkened quite a lot. Does shellac darken any more or less? I spray painted the top. I like the contrast it makes with the frame but it was a bit of a shame because the wood had a nice grain and no problem with tear out. I guess tropical woods are more prone to tear out because the growth seasons aren't so distinct - although in these parts there's a really distinct wet and dry season. Everything stops growing in the dry season and many of the trees are deciduous or semi-deciduous. In other areas, the south particularly and the amazon, it rains all through the year. Here's a pic after the first coat. Will send some detailed pics of the finish once it develops a bit of shine. For anyone interested in Brazilian timbers, there's a really good book series available in an English edition. 3 volumes so far, but the first volume has most of the more important trees/timbers - not exactly cheap! - see: https://www.amazon.com/Brazilian-Trees- ... entries*=0

 

[ED65]

Thanks yetloh and no skills. Too late for shellac I'm afraid. I applied the first coat of linseed oil early yesterday morning.

Nope You can apply shellac over oiled wood. It's actually very frequently done.

Does shellac darken any more or less?

Much less usually. Depends a little on species.

In general oiling deepens the tone of wood the most of all finishes.

The stand looks great, well done.

 

[yetloh]

Thanks yetloh and no skills. Too late for shellac I'm afraid. I applied the first coat of linseed oil early yesterday morning.

Nope You can apply shellac over oiled wood. It's actually very frequently done.

Yes, I agree. In fact, shellac will stick to almost anything and can be used as surface preparation between incompatible finishes.

Jim

 

[sebinho]

yetloh and ed65, I went and got some shellac flakes, which I discovered carpenters here call "cockroach wing" and mixed it up with ethanol from the bowser (what the carpenters do, I was told - most cars here can run on pure ethanol). Worked really well with the oil base, i think. There's 4 coats of linseed oil, then a coat of shellac which I sanded with 400grit paper, then a further two coats of shellac. I'll polish it later with a rag.. Will paste some pics with loudspeaker below. Most of the joints in the stand are a bit dodgy and the stand is not perfectly square, but I'll get the second one a little tidier. I think the problem was the way I was marking, (mis)using a circle cutter. Not ideal. Marking gauges don't seem to exist here (nor, oddly, do wooden mallets), but I realised recently I can use my combination square to get more consistent results.

Quick question: with the orange top, I sprayed automotive spray paint directly on the wood. The grain shows through, which doesn't look bad - but if i wanted to get a more flat appearance - is it just a matter of applying a coat of shellac and sanding back with fine sandpaper before spray-painting?

Cheers,

 

[yetloh]

Looks good as it is. Shellac has only limited grain filling capability so, ideally, it would be better to start with some sort of fine surface filler. As you have already used a motor finish for the stand surface I would suggest you look into a fine auto filler which should be compatible with your orange finish and obviate the need for a coat of shellac.

Jim

 

[ED65]

That's looking super. But are those planer marks on the front face of the cross-member in the first photo?

Marking gauges don't seem to exist here (nor, oddly, do wooden mallets)

Luckily, marking/cutting gauges and mallets are easy projects

A wooden mallet isn't a must-have though, many modern woodworkers don't use one.

 

[sebinho]

But are those planer marks on the front face of the cross-member in the first photo?

I don't think so, the grain is wildly variable in the various pieces. But there are certainly other careless marks that I left behind elsewhere. Stand #2 is coming along much better and I planed all pieces well before cutting the notches.

A wooden mallet isn't a must-have though, many modern woodworkers don't use one.

Not even for doing mortises without a drill press? Actually, the square hole in a mallet head looks tricky to do without a mallet!? I did actually find a few imported mallets online but the cheapest was R$320. Oh, by the way, if I do end up using a mallet on chisels, are blue plastic handled Marples chisels whackable? Maybe better to get something cheap and cheerful for this...

Jim, thanks. Yes, I'm not touching the finished orange piece and I'll be doing the second the same way. Had read that people use shellac as an undercoat so I thought I'd ask, for future reference. I'll ask at the paint shop for a recommendation on a filler.

Cheers,

 

[yetloh]

Oh, by the way, if I do end up using a mallet on chisels, are blue plastic handled Marples chisels whackable? Maybe better to get something cheap and cheerful for this...
Cheers,

Those plastic handles are designed for site carpenters who wouldn't know a mallet if it hit them, a hammer will be fine.

Jim