Fiat V Ferrari

[Benchwayze]

Then the back of the chisel is actually curved quite a large amount back to front...
They're not good, I don't see why people love them so.

There are a few manufacturers left in Britain such as Ashley Iles, Robert Sorby, Crown, Henry Taylor. It's just none have them have really pushed anything for 25+ years, they've all been left in the dust compared to the American and Mainland European manufacturers.

Paul Sellars will explain the curved-back chisels, when he discusses Aldi chisels on YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ki8tt-VjwqI

An eyes open visit to Sheffield will help to explain why manufacturers are lagging. Seems like Brum. Night-clubs and block paving are more important to the Council than the life blood of the cities.

Feel free to disagree Sheffielders, of course!

John (hammer)

 

[Hornbeam]

Buying and using tools is a very personal thing. Very few of us can afford a full toolbox of new top quality tools, mine have been built up over the last 30 years. Buying more expensive and in theory better tools means most of us have to buy less. On the other hand a small tool kit of really good tools will cover most of what you need. Where you make the distinction between good quality/performance is your call. Most of my tools are secondhand but they have all been fettled and are properly sharp. Fettling and sharpening takes time but the amount you learn is great and will help your general appreciation and understanding of tool use

 

[SMALMALEKI]

John (hammer)

Hi john

That’s very nice to see your contribution on the discussion.
You hit the nail on the head. The good second hand chisels are not readily available and one has to wait for it. I don’t disagree. So far I have not come across any good quality bench or dovetails chisels online or from second hand shops.

Most of the ones I see are wood turning or firmer chisels.

Paul Sellers says in one of his YouTube clips not to buy second hand tool ( saw) unless you know exactly how to improve it because they may have inherited some problem from previous misuse . I do agree with him. I have couple of old tools from a second hand shop. I can even sharpen them with butter due to soft cutting edge.

 

[SMALMALEKI]

I am confident saying Lie-Nielsen's claim that their chisels and planes are ready to use out of the box might not be very accurate. /quote]

I don't know about LN chisels but, all I have ever had to do to a Lie Nielsen plane is examine it first off, then put the secondary bevel on the iron. I don't use David Cs ruler trick. I just flatten the first 1/2 inch or so of the face, by hanging the iron over the edge of the stone. That's all that's necessary. You're looking just for enough flatness to support the cap-iron and get it closed up near to the edge to avoid tear-out. (If you doubt that, check out Richard McGuire on YouTube with regard to tear out. Few do nicer work than Richard. )

The majority of the face is hidden by the cap-iron anyway. Subsequent sharpening advances the flattening as you go, just like the copes in a Japanese chisel. I'd sooner put work into my projects than into unecessary targets for my tools. That's how I saw my Grandfather's work, and there was nothing wrong with that I can assure you. As a self-employed wood-turner, and furniture maker, during the Edwardian era, he didn't have time to make a shaving mirror out of the back of a plane iron! Well okay, he might have done, but seriously I doubt it.

John (hammer)

Now that I have almost all chisels I need, I am going to start searching for good shiny planes.

I am happy to receive offers of nice shiny Clifton, Veritas or Lie Nielsen planes with a flat plane sole and shsrp cutting iron. Bronze body planes are accepted as well.
:evil:

 

[Trevanion]

I am happy to receive offers of nice shiny Clifton, Veritas or Lie Nielsen planes with a flat plane sole and shsrp cutting iron.

Don't get me started on Clifton... :lol:

 

[Lons]

So why does a hobbyist need Blue Spruce and the like? Well it's simple really. If you can afford the best, (and that's debatable) buy the best. It's your hobby. Make it as pleasant as you can and you enjoy it all the more.

If you can't afford the best then compromise. If all you can afford is mediocre or worse, sacrifice a few pints and save for a nice tool. (You can't engage in your hobby if you are drunk anyhow.)
Having met Saeid, I can confirm he's a thoroughly likeable, friendly chap who just wants to have some nice tools. Can't knock anyone with those sentiments.

John (hammer)

Spot on John, my sentiments exactly.
I get great satisfaction using my trusty old Startrite bandsaw and Medings pillar drill along with numerous old hand tools aquired over the last 50 years where others prefer nice shiny new out of the box tools and machinery. That's not to say I don't like new shiny toys as well btw. :wink:

Another of my pastimes is fly fishing and I own a couple of expensive Hardy fly rods, don't catch any more fish than one I could get for £30 but I really, really enjoy using them.
On the other hand I'm a regular but high handicap golfer (16) and have a pretty average set of clubs. I'm realistic enough to know that a brand new set of high end bats would look great but I couldn't play any better so it's a low priority and not something I'll be contemplating anytime soon..

We only have one life and need to get out of it all we can so if something that gives you pleasure, is justifyable and affordable then why not!

 

[shed9]

To add my £0.02, I have gone down both routes, I have older earlier chisels and planes and newer Veritas and Lie Nielsen in equal measure.

I've nailed my opinion on the cheap-tool door in the past often to the usual retorts from the usual suspects. I agree with the comments on the OP's opening gambit in that the process itself is as important as the eventual end goal, sometimes more so. Yes a fettled cheap tool will get you there but monetary value is not always the driver or even the point for everyone all of the the time. Flattening a plane sole takes an awful long time and I suspect longer than most people who have never done it realise. That's time better spent using it for some.

If you can afford it or found a way to justify it then go with it and buy the actual tool you want. If you enjoy it then it's money well spent, if you don't then you're already in a better position to recoup your original investment.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

... The good second hand chisels are not readily available and one has to wait for it. I don’t disagree.

I had a set of four metric Stanley 5001s for sale here for £20 inc. P&P..................... I've still got them.
People, especially beginners like buying new despite any advice to the contrary.

These threads always end up the same way - with people trying to justify their spending a lot of money on nice tools. Fine, if it makes you feel better ............ but don't pretend they'll automatically make your work better.

 

[SMALMALEKI]

Thank you for the reply. Do they have wooden handle? Excuse my lack of knowledge.

Regards

Saeid

 

[SMALMALEKI]

... The good second hand chisels are not readily available and one has to wait for it. I don’t disagree.

I had a set of four metric Stanley 5001s for sale here for £20 inc. P&P..................... I've still got them.
People, especially beginners like buying new despite any advice to the contrary.

These threads always end up the same way - with people trying to justify their spending a lot of money on nice tools. Fine, if it makes you feel better ............ but don't pretend they'll automatically make your work better.

I am always happy to learn from fellow woodworkers. That’s why I have been using Aldi chisels proudly.
The funny thing is some experienced woodworkers don’t follow their own lectures. Although they advocate old chisels then when you see them in action they are using other chisels. The hypocrisy here makes a newbie double the teaching.

:roll:

 

[Racers]

I have a some cast steel chisels all from eBay/carboots that I use in the workshop and a some Marples/Stanley modern ones that get used outside the workshop.

The cast steel ones are very nice and all hold an edge well and have nice wooden handles.

Pete

 

[AndyT]

Maybe forums like this and YouTube videos are misleading some people.
Nearly all of my tools are old ones.
Occasionally I enjoy the challenge of taking a tool that looked like scrap and putting it back to work, and have shared some of those on here.
But in the vast majority of cases, the only work I have needed to do has been to sharpen the cutting edge - an entirely normal action which will be repeated every few hours of use. There are plenty of old tools as usable now as when their last owners put them down. They don't all need hours of work and special secret techniques.

 

[Just4Fun]

I have a mix of old and new tools. I assume they are Fiats rather than Ferraris. Most of them seem fine to me but as I have never tried anything at the Ferrari end of the market I may be struggling with junk and never know it.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Thank you for the reply. Do they have wooden handle? Excuse my lack of knowledge.
Regards
Saeid

No, 5001s have black plastic handles. They are acknowledged to be probably the best middle market chisels of their era ('70s?) and since).

 

[marcros]

it is an interesting discussion. On my part, it is mainly guess work but

As I see it, first and foremost you pay your money and take your choice. whatever you decide to spend, and whatever you decide to spend it on is your own choice.

The more interesting part to me is that most people on here are the modern equivalent of gentlemen woodworkers, who back in the day would have purchased tools [brand new] way beyond the minimum level necessary to do what the task needed. You only need to look at some of the top end tools from yesteryear, or the pages of a period tool catalogue. Tradesmen were not using many of these ornate pieces. Were the ebony and brass braces ever necessary, or would the opium house customers of the 18th century sat around saying "well a beech one would bore the same hole".

How does history mirror the discussions that we are having, anybody got any actual knowledge rather than my guess.

 

[MikeG.]

......So why does a hobbyist need Blue Spruce and the like? Well it's simple really. If you can afford the best, (and that's debatable) buy the best. It's your hobby. Make it as pleasant as you can and you enjoy it all the more.......

Whilst I couldn't agree more, the issue is knowing what "the best" actually means. Is a new ridiculously expensive Blue Spruce/ Lie Nielson/ whatever really the best? Personally, I don't accept the existence of such a thing as "the best" when it comes to chisels.

And if you can't sharpen it properly, in 3 or 4 hours use whatever you own is going to be absolutely the equal of any old car-boot special. When it comes to chisels, there really is no such thing as a Fiat/ Ferrari divide.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

it is an interesting discussion. On my part, it is mainly guess work but

As I see it, first and foremost you pay your money and take your choice. whatever you decide to spend, and whatever you decide to spend it on is your own choice.

The more interesting part to me is that most people on here are the modern equivalent of gentlemen woodworkers, who back in the day would have purchased tools [brand new] way beyond the minimum level necessary to do what the task needed. You only need to look at some of the top end tools from yesteryear, or the pages of a period tool catalogue. Tradesmen were not using many of these ornate pieces. Were the ebony and brass braces ever necessary, or would the opium house customers of the 18th century sat around saying "well a beech one would bore the same hole".

How does history mirror the discussions that we are having, anybody got any actual knowledge rather than my guess.

Can't quote 'actual knowledge', but I think you're on to something. There's a part of human nature that values the decorative, beautiful and showy - many women like their fine clothes or jewellery, and many men like their cars/high-end golf clubs/Holtey planes, and whatever. The Sutton Hoo treasure has a finely decorated warrior's helmet - a plain one would have been just as useful. It's more a statement of 'status' than a utilitarian item. I suppose posh chisels are a slightly more democratised version of the same thing. No harm in it, as long as nobody gets hurt.

Remember reading somewhere about ebony and ivory plough planes produced in small numbers in the 19th century. The author reckoned their main advantage was that they cost less than a gold clock if a presentation was made by an employer to a member of his staff. Possibly also explains why so few of the surviving ones that turn up look like they've been used at all!

 

[Benchwayze]

To add my £0.02, I have gone down both routes, I have older earlier chisels and planes and newer Veritas and Lie Nielsen in equal measure.

I've nailed my opinion on the cheap-tool door in the past often to the usual retorts from the usual suspects. I agree with the comments on the OP's opening gambit in that the process itself is as important as the eventual end goal, sometimes more so. Yes a fettled cheap tool will get you there but monetary value is not always the driver or even the point for everyone all of the the time. Flattening a plane sole takes an awful long time and I suspect longer than most people who have never done it realise. That's time better spent using it for some.

If you can afford it or found a way to justify it then go with it and buy the actual tool you want. If you enjoy it then it's money well spent, if you don't then you're already in a better position to recoup your original investment.

How true Shed:

Flattening to the nth degree is not often necessary at all. I have seen a video by none other than the late David Savage, who insisted on flattening the sole of a Lie Nielsen No. 5-1/2 straight out of the box. I think that is overkill bordering on insult to the LN factory.

Even with a second hand, oldie, give it the once over for anything obvious, then sharpen the iron properly. Then see how it cuts. Usually that's all that is required.

John

 

[Benchwayze]

......So why does a hobbyist need Blue Spruce and the like? Well it's simple really. If you can afford the best, (and that's debatable) buy the best. It's your hobby. Make it as pleasant as you can and you enjoy it all the more.......

Whilst I couldn't agree more, the issue is knowing what "the best" actually means. Is a new ridiculously expensive Blue Spruce/ Lie Nielson/ whatever really the best? Personally, I don't accept the existence of such a thing as "the best" when it comes to chisels.

And if you can't sharpen it properly, in 3 or 4 hours use whatever you own is going to be absolutely the equal of any old car-boot special. When it comes to chisels, there really is no such thing as a Fiat/ Ferrari divide.

As I said Mike, Blue Spruce, as the best; debatable!

My Marples chisels are probably Volvos against Fords.
Ford; fix or repair daily
Volvos, tough, long lived, and with care, ultra reliable. They get the job done. Just gave my 20 year old S90 to my son as a stop-gap BTW. 8) He tried to drive his Jag through a puddle he claims he didn't realise was so deep!
John (hammer)

 

[SMALMALEKI]

Thank you for the reply. Do they have wooden handle? Excuse my lack of knowledge.
Regards
Saeid

No, 5001s have black plastic handles. They are acknowledged to be probably the best middle market chisels of their era ('70s?) and since).

Thank you for your reply. I would like to take them to my workbench and let them show their abilities.

Would you please send me a payment details.

Regards