Festool parallel guides ?.

[sometimewoodworker]

I think the various comments, particularly from @sometimewoodworker above all support my original comment that these guides are unbeatable in doing repeat cuts on large boards.

One reason I have not used my set as much as I might have done is that with the (relatively few) jobs I have done needing to break down many large boards, I have used a cutting service - you get your boards all beautifully cut and labelled up plus all the offcuts and I’m not sure the cost is any more than buying the boards full size.

Cheers

If you have a cutting service like that and know exactly what you need then I consider that the guides are probably virtually redundant for you.

But the majority of my usage is not on long pieces, (I know you don’t say that but it seems implied) but on cutting many relatively narrow pieces to exact length. I sometimes use them on an 800 rail. So unbeatable if you are cutting more than a few pieces to the same dimension.

 

[scholar]

If you have a cutting service like that and know exactly what you need then I consider that the guides are probably virtually redundant for you.

But the majority of my usage is not on long pieces, (I know you don’t say that but it seems implied) but on cutting many relatively narrow pieces to exact length. I sometimes use them on an 800 rail. So unbeatable if you are cutting more than a few pieces to the same dimension.

I agree.

Just to clarify, my qualification regarding long boards was only to allow for the view that you can do quick accurate repeat cuts with an MFT (which I don't have anyway) but that is limited to shorter boards.

(Which is why I hang on to my set, even though they don't get used often).

Cheers

 

[TRITON]

DO NOT DO THAT the guides are parallel, not right angle. I made that mistake about 13 years ago and could not understand why I was not getting parallel pieces. The stops and a loose fit can guarantee parallel cuts with just a second of setup. Without the stops and with a tight fit they are virtually redundant.

Well if thats the case then theres no point in buying them, and i could do just as well and just as accurate using a couple of clamps, or not even clamps.

Personally I cant understand how a rail, a left and right parallel guide isnt going to ensure the rail is held exactly square to the board being cut. Thats the whole point of them is it not ? the end stops just give the length(or depth,width, whatever), its the guides themselves which must determine its squareness especially if they are snug to the sides which would prevent the system twisting.

Because making any sort of jig for the router to make for example a jig to router housings. Its going to do the same thing. Provide a parallel line to the edge, then slid down to the next cut also a parallel line. Maybe im not getting the concept of this, but i still cant see how yours weren't parallel to the edge.

 

[Distinterior]

Festool ( or any other quality tool manufacturer), spend ages designing & developing a tool or accessory to work in a certain manner.
The stops and extensions we are discussing here are part of the Parallel Guide system and the system works......Believe me!

I've been using mine for years and, as long as you have set it up correctly, its bang on accurate, repetitive & quick.

Large sheets of material have rough edges and are not accurately machined as we all know.....Setting up the parallel guides tight to both ends of the sheet is going to introduce problems and is not the way Festool designed the guides to be utilised.

The stops are what ensure accuracy and the friction of the rail on the sheet, not the edges of the guides themselves up against the edges of the sheet.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Well if thats the case then theres no point in buying them, and i could do just as well and just as accurate using a couple of clamps, or not even clamps.

Personally I cant understand how a rail, a left and right parallel guide isnt going to ensure the rail is held exactly square to the board being cut. Thats the whole point of them is it not ? the end stops just give the length(or depth,width, whatever), its the guides themselves which must determine its squareness especially if they are snug to the sides which would prevent the system twisting.

Because making any sort of jig for the router to make for example a jig to router housings. Its going to do the same thing. Provide a parallel line to the edge, then slid down to the next cut also a parallel line. Maybe im not getting the concept of this, but i still cant see how yours weren't parallel to the edge.

There is no guarantee that the guides will be square to the rail, they have not been engineered to be acutely square.

The stops (if you set them up correctly) guarantee that 2 edges will be parallel. There is no requirement for the workpiece to be a rectangle. It can be a parallelogram or trapezoid and as long as the angles are not too large the parallel guides will allow 2 sides to be cut parallel.

The designed way for them to function is that there is clearance of about 1 ~ 2 centimetres either side.

So to repeat they are not right angle guides have not been designed to be right angle guides.

They are supremely useful and fast parallel guides.

If what you want is a right angle guide that attaches to your rail then don’t buy parallel guides. That they are not right angle guides.

Finally to address the point of why my guides did not cut parallel when they were set with no clearance for the sides, that is simply due to the whole setup binding or the workpiece starting without being a rectangle. Once I learned to stop thinking of them as an accurate square and left at least 1cm or more clearance they are extremely fast.

The designed use is to cut parallel pieces that you can then cut square. There is absolutely no need to cut your sheet goods square, IMHO it is much easier to cut smaller pieces acutely square

The fastest way to cut box sides (I’ve cut a couple of hundred relatively recently) is cut the long pieces out of a panel, then square one end and use the guides to cut the pieces shorter using the single square end as the reference.
So I trim one edge, cut the width from the panel, cut one end square, then cut the pieces to hight, that gives the fewest adjustments to the guides, and needs the fewest cuts

 

[MikeK]

I hope this won't add more confusion to the discussion, but I have the TSO guide rail squares and parallel guide system. Anytime I use the parallel guide system, either with the rails squares or attached directly to the Festool guide rail, there is no contact at all on the side of the board being cut. The only edge contacts are by the rail stops at the opposite edge (the reference edge).

Assuming the rail stops are accurate (they are), the resulting cut will be parallel to the reference edge every time. Because the parallel guides rest on the board being cut, I don't have to worry about sag or balancing, or centering the saw guide rail on the board. As long as the rail guide stops are anywhere near the corners of the board, the system is stable and all cuts for a given length are repeatable.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Personally I cant understand how a rail, a left and right parallel guide isnt going to ensure the rail is held exactly square to the board being cut. Thats the whole point of them is it not ?

No it isn’t

this is not a square and is virtually useless

this is a square

this is the extremely useful setup

For an accurate 450mm cut
as you can see the there is no need for the sides to be close or even the same distance apart

this is the guarantee of accuracy
And this is how you can be sure that they are calibrated

 

[sometimewoodworker]

I hope this won't add more confusion to the discussion, but I have the TSO guide rail squares and parallel guide system. Anytime I use the parallel guide system, either with the rails squares or attached directly to the Festool guide rail, there is no contact at all on the side of the board being cut. The only edge contacts are by the rail stops at the opposite edge (the reference edge).

Assuming the rail stops are accurate (they are), the resulting cut will be parallel to the reference edge every time. Because the parallel guides rest on the board being cut, I don't have to worry about sag or balancing, or centering the saw guide rail on the board. As long as the rail guide stops are anywhere near the corners of the board, the system is stable and all cuts for a given length are repeatable.

When I bought my guides Festool were the only ones available.

The TSO could possibly be better, but that’s to be expected since they could look at the Festool design first.

But it’s touted as being able to cut square and parallel however you first need to cut your board to have an accurate 90 degree corner, something that the Festool doesn’t need.

I do have the TSO GRS-16 PE and it’s an excellent product

 

[MikeK]

When I bought my guides Festool were the only ones available.

The TSO could possibly be better, but that’s to be expected since they could look at the Festool design first.

But it’s touted as being able to cut square and parallel however you first need to cut your board to have an accurate 90 degree corner, something that the Festool doesn’t need.

I do have the TSO GRS-16 PE and it’s an excellent product

Ha ha!!! The only reason I bought the TSO parallel rails is because the Festool were not available anywhere for me and the best estimate from my favorite distributor was .

 

[TRITON]

This is a complete bloody joke.
One of the reasons i bought the festool plunge saw was so many going on and on how good it is and you dont need a table saw, and even to the point of claiming it replaces the table saw.
My table saw and its cross cut sliding table are obviously now better, cheaper and will give a far more accurate cut that festool, makita or anyone elses plunge saw if the system cannot be arranged to snip off square sections of board at lengths beyond the capacity of the parallel guide system.

In fact i could just make a parallel guide system with 3 bits of mdf and use a bog standard circular saw to do the same job.

 

[Distinterior]

This is a complete bloody joke.
One of the reasons i bought the festool plunge saw was so many going on and on how good it is and you dont need a table saw, and even to the point of claiming it replaces the table saw.
My table saw and its cross cut sliding table are obviously now better, cheaper and will give a far more accurate cut that festool, makita or anyone elses plunge saw if the system cannot be arranged to snip off square sections of board at lengths beyond the capacity of the parallel guide system.

I have 2 table saws.....and I dont remember the last time I used it to cut any type of sheet material....seriously!
If you are planning to cut up accurately, sheets of material into smaller component pieces, this, along with an MFT type top, is the best system I've come across. Admittedly, if you have the space and access to a large sliding panel saw with a scribe blade, then this system may seem limited to some degree but that doesn't make it a "complete bloody joke".....

With all due respect Triton, members here are offering you advice based upon years of using this system,....Just trust their advice.
We cant all be telling you lies .

 

[Distinterior]

Perhaps I should give you a scenario where this system excels.....

Imagine you want to make a load of wardrobes or kitchen cabinets, for example.
You would need a lot of panels of the same or similar sizes.
You dont have access to or space for a large panel saw.
With a tracksaw and rails along with an MFT top & the parallel guides, you can make every cut needed using the aforementioned and all the panels will be square & accurate.

 

[TRITON]

With all due respect Triton, members here are offering you advice based upon years of using this system,....Just trust their advice.
We cant all be telling you lies .

I didnt say people were telling lies so stop putting words in my mouth.
And as to track saws in general, well we used sliding tables on saws 100 years before their invention. theyre new and popular, but far from the fanboy reputation theyre being purported as.

I trained for years at college to do this, and we didnt have any lectures in tracksaws, but everything cut square to length was done on a panel saw, which is suppose thee reason we have panel saws for sale and in general use today.

Sure not everyone has the space, and trying to singly man handle a full sheet onto a table or panel saw can be a bit of a task. But that doesnt and never will make track saws a better option for cutting boards.

If anything ,its a site tool and i believe thats their origins, German shop fitters.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

This is a complete bloody joke.

then sell your Festool saws (assuming you still have them) because you have no need for them. You will get as much as for them as you payed.

Personally I don’t have a table saw with a table bigger than 50cm x 35cm and no sliding attachment.
I have cut 2.4 metre pieces parallel then squared them up, the example is above.
I see no benefit to squaring the board before cutting as opposed to cutting parallel first then squaring
950mm is more than long enough for almost any piece I cut square, longer and I use different tools.

nobody is suggesting that there is just one way to do any job. Sure your 3 bits of MDF and a circular saw can do the same job and so can a piece of string, some chalk, a couple of nails and a hand saw. Also a CNC.I know which one I choose.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

I trained for years at college to do this, and we didnt have any lectures in tracksaws, but everything cut square to length was done on a panel saw, which is suppose thee reason we have panel saws for sale and in general use today.

Sure not everyone has the space, and trying to singly man handle a full sheet onto a table or panel saw can be a bit of a task. But that doesnt and never will make track saws a better option for cutting boards.

And when did your instructors learn? The methods taught were old, that doesn’t make them bad, but the college was turning out people to work in industry. Industry has the money and space for panel saws and sliding table table saws so that’s what you got taught.

in an industrial setting a sliding table table saw and panel saw are probably the best option. But in my workshop a track saw is a far better option for breaking down sheet goods. So your last sentence is at best incomplete but in many cases just plain wrong.

You do you but don’t pretend to have the correct answers for others, you don’t

 

[Distinterior]

I didnt say people were telling lies so stop putting words in my mouth.
And as to track saws in general, well we used sliding tables on saws 100 years before their invention. theyre new and popular, but far from the fanboy reputation theyre being purported as.

I trained for years at college to do this, and we didnt have any lectures in tracksaws, but everything cut square to length was done on a panel saw, which is suppose thee reason we have panel saws for sale and in general use today.

Sure not everyone has the space, and trying to singly man handle a full sheet onto a table or panel saw can be a bit of a task. But that doesnt and never will make track saws a better option for cutting boards.

If anything ,its a site tool and i believe thats their origins, German shop fitters.

I don't know what else to say Triton.....I apologise if you misconstrued what I said regarding people telling you lies, but it was a figure of speech.
As you can probably tell, I am a convert to tracksaws in general. Hence, the fact that I now have 2 table saws that are barely used.
If I had the space and money to want to go out and buy a large scribing panel saw, I would coz it would do all the things we have been discussing.......But then, so can the tracksaw/ parallel guides/ MFT, in my workflow. Your workflow may be different and it doesn't make one of us wrong and the other right.

 

[TRITON]

Ok. Lets start again.

Festool parallel clamps.

Attach one guide to the rail. I have no doubts that that single guide isnt exactly at right angles to the rail, and if i were to press it to the side of a board, it would be as square as squareness gets. I dont see something coming from festool as being anything other than perfectly square.
Place the other and measure the distance top and bottom i believe they will be parallel to each other- because if they weren't, then they wouldn't call them 'parallel guides' would they

Everyone getting the concept ?

Right.
Without adding the bottom stops that give the depth or length(you know what i mean) i can place the track rail on a board of any width, slide the parallel guides so the contact the sides, and even push them in snug so there is no play, the rail will be exactly at right angles to the board.

This can be checked by sliding it fully forward so it lines up with the factory edge.

Sliding it back the required distance, make the cut, your cut piece should be perfectly square. I would be placing the track onto pencil marks to give me the depth of each cut piece.
Slide it back to the next mark, make a cut and so on till i have as many pieces at my width will allow on the length of the board. so if im looking for 700mm, ill get three pieces out an 8' length.

Everyone understand where im coming from here ?.

I really dont believe that festool would make an attachment that when fixed on isnt going to be square and parallel. Sure it might be out by 0.5 or less of a mill, but that type of accuracy is acceptable on a kitchen door or in fact just about anything we can make furniture wise.

These tables with the dog holes arrived long after track saws appeared, so shopfitters would have been using the parallel guide pretty much in the manner ive described, or just laying the rail on the board and cutting it to pencil lines, with clamps to ensure nothing moved during the cut.
So the MFT isnt a necessity, its handy, it allows accurate right angles, parallel cuts, but its not needed really. To have accurately sized sections, the parallel guides would do the job just as well. and in that task we've been making similar in mdf jigs for far longer.

 

[Spectric]

I think we have to be honest and admit that if we had the space and the cash that the sliding table panel saw is unbeatable. Set the stop and just run your your sheet through to get as many identical parts as you want without any issues of squareness. But even with the cash unless you have the space then the tracksaw is going to be your best option for sheet goods and as said

the parallel guides will allow 2 sides to be cut parallel.

but then what, you need a railsquare to cut the other two sides square to the two parallel sides?

 

[TRITON]

Furthermore - were i to use a single of the parallel guides, effectively a giant square, that would probably be enough too make a series of parallel cuts(or limited depth to do dados or housings.
A single clamp on the no guided side would ensure the rail wouldn't accidentally move in use.
By having the 2nd guide fitted, it would ensure the rail wouldn't accidentally move and the need for a clamp is eliminated.

What im taking about is effectively this - TSO Guide Rail Squares | Track Saw Accessories
Only the festool guides are longer. But im doing the exact same thing. using the festool guides.

Im removing the cut depth stops, because the board is 8' long, and those stops are limited to 650mm(650mm wasnt it ?).

 

[TRITON]

This is why im best working alone. I'd have launched several hammers by now