Experience, efficiency and enjoyment.

[Phil Pascoe]

Sorry Jacob, but I can't agree. Humans are all different, with a huge range of innate abilities and aptitudes. If we were all equally gifted, we'd all be Test standard cricketers, or physics Nobel laureates, or Grinling Gibbonses.

Yes - I think I'd need several more lives before I could draw ........... or even write longhand legibly.

 

[Jacob]

And no consideration of transferable skills. Or aptitude. Although it seems modern thinking to deny the existence of talent / aptitude and pretend anyone can achieve whatever they put their mind to.

Yes I think people can achieve almost whatever they set their minds too, given the right opportunities. I don't believe in innate talent or aptitude, though innate brain power might be needed for some things

Sorry Jacob, but I can't agree. Humans are all different, with a huge range of innate abilities and aptitudes. If we were all equally gifted, we'd all be Test standard cricketers, or physics Nobel laureates, or Grinling Gibbonses.

You tend to find that people who are very good at something have spent a lot of time doing it (10000 hours at the very least!) and have benefited from good education, training, support, encouragement, as appropriate. Nobody is born a nuclear physicist. Not everybody will reach the tops of course, but most people will reach a level of success in whatever area fate and motivation leads them if they stick at it!

 

[Jacob]

Sorry Jacob, but I can't agree. Humans are all different, with a huge range of innate abilities and aptitudes. If we were all equally gifted, we'd all be Test standard cricketers, or physics Nobel laureates, or Grinling Gibbonses.

Yes - I think I'd need several more lives before I could draw ........... or even write longhand legibly.

Entirely up to you. Neither of them are rocket science - you would do them if you really wanted to.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I'm 64, I've been trying all my life. How does that fit your 10,000 hour theory?

 

[Jacob]

On the banjo question ....

Bugbear is right that I'd normally say build light, but this is apparently not so for banjos! Those in the know seem to like heavy. I think this is because the skin head is about as light as you can get, and so needs to be in a very stable support to work at its best.

What I'd look for in a "beginner" banjo is much what has been said above:

1. Don't worry too much about "tone". All banjos are pretty loud and make similar sounds. Most of the tone comes from playing technique. Once you're good enough to recognise that your banjo's tone is sub-optimum, you'll be good enough to justify trading it in for a better one.

2. The most important thing is that it should be properly set up. Cheap factory instruments tend to have the nut slots too shallow, which makes playing on the lower frets hard work and not properly in tune. They also have high "action" (the height of the strings above the frets at the 12th or higher frets). The neck needs to be straight (and a banjo neck is long and thin, so tempted to move around) and have exactly the right amount of curve pulled into it by the strings (this is known as "relief", if you hold down a string at, say, the 1st and 12th frets, there should a little space between it and the frets at the 6th fret; but only a very little). If these are all wrong, only a very competent player can make the instrument sound good, and they will be working hard to do so. A beginner needs these right, so that the playing can be concentrated on. The woodworking analogy might be cutting with a blunt saw.

3. The construction needs to be sound, so the neck is firmly attached and the rim doesn't flex excessively, and so that it can be adjusted as needed.

Most of the £150 banjos can be sorted out if enough time and effort are spent (though some are probably beyond hope), but how is the beginner to know which ones, and how to fix them?

Two options I think:

a. Find a good player and take her or him to the shop. Once you've bought with your eyes, get the good player to play every one of that model which is in the shop. One will be better to play than all the rest, buy that one. With luck the player will be able to say "This one only needs the nut slots taking down and a tweak to the truss rod, and I can do that for you". Beer will need to be supplied.

b. Buy a second hand banjo from a good player whom you trust, on the basis that they will have set it up properly. Bit of a leap of faith, but most of the good players I know are rather concerned that beginners shouldn't start on badly set up instruments.

Yes to all that. My best one is a Korean copy of a Gibson Mastertone. Weighs a ton but has very sweet sound - and loud if you want it to be.
One big catch is that the mechanics can be f&cked - there is a load of things which can be adjusted - truss rod, coordinator rods, head tension nuts, tail piece etc. Threads stripped and wooden rims can be sprung apart.
Oddly enough wear is rarely a problem - they only get a lot of use if they sound and play well - wear is a very good sign!

 

[Jacob]

I'm 64, I've been trying all my life. How does that fit your 10,000 hour theory?

20000 hours piddling about is no good - you have to concentrate and try really hard - with good materials and good instruction. Go to a drawing class.
The main thing is to have no shame about being cr*p at it - discover the inner child - they aren't embarrassed or inhibited by the rubbish they come out with!

 

[Trafalgar]

Or one's testicle could explode:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5283738/g ... almonella/

 

[MusicMan]

There's a story about a witness who bragged to a judge that he had 20 years' experience. The judge asked if he had really had 20 years' experience, or one year's experience 20 times.

I can't draw freehand, either. But I haven't ever seriously tried.

 

[Austinisgreat]

We're talking about sawing and cutting bits of wood, not playing Beethoven's violin concerto!

:x :lol:

 

[D_W]

You're right. I think I'll move into selling back supports and joint braces.... I'll certainly make a fortune off people like you.

I think you might need to, because it doesn't sound like your future is in woodworking - it sounds like you have too much tension. For that matter, my future isn't in it, either.

I majored in mathematics in college, I took calculus-based physics, and i can't even begin to think of a time where I was such a pedant in conversations to myself that I thought I had to talk about physics when I was just trying to do something like rasp a few facets onto a plane handle so that I could make it into a curve.

 

[Ttrees]

G ooot t the shed lads and put the heaters on
This winter business it tough goin !

Easy for me to say...trying to get the cahoonas together myself

Happy new year dudes

Tom

 

[D_W]

The coldest my shop has gotten this year is about one degree above freezing at the bench, which was 20c warmer than outside. You can still work at that. It's actually quite nice for planing, aside from the static.

I get a microchill once in a while, but that apparently doesn't cause microtensions. Not macrotensions, either.

 

[Tasky]

I think you might need to, because it doesn't sound like your future is in woodworking - it sounds like you have too much tension. For that matter, my future isn't in it, either.

Not if you really believe body mechanics have nothing to do with your work, it isn't!!

I was just trying to do something like rasp a few facets onto a plane handle so that I could make it into a curve.

And that's what people never realise - You can't *just* do anything. Sure you'll look at the wood grain to find the best way to work the rasp over it, but people never (no matter what they majored in) look at how they work their body and that's what leads to problems, especially later on in life.

"Oh, but that's how we've always done it and it's never been a problem before..." - Our consultant in the Rheumatology department must have heard that at least twice a day!
His usual reply to such people was that, as a result of the above attitude, the problem was already exacerbated beyond only our treatment and the patient was now being referred to the Osteo department for additional surgical consultation.

 

[nabs]

it is no doubt true that blind adherence to tradition can slow innovation. Mind you, I still preferred it when this thread was about banjos

 

[Jacob]

it is no doubt true that blind adherence to tradition can slow innovation. ...

:lol: :lol:

Blind adherence to innovation is more the problem - especially with woodworkers it seems! Just look at the problems it causes, not only with sharpening!

Tradition incorporates innovation - its the collective product/wisdom of generations of craftsmen, steadily developing, with lesser or greater innovations getting picked up as time goes by, tried and tested under pressure to be productive and efficient.

 

[custard]

Not if you really believe body mechanics have nothing to do with your work, it isn't!!

There was a chap on this forum who only had the use of one hand, he was interested in cutting dovetails so I tried doing the job one handed to see what lessons might be learned.

one-handed-dovetails-t98996.html

It wasn't the tidiest set of dovetails I've ever done, but they were good enough; and if I kept at it I'm sure they'd only improve.

As far as I'm concerned successful furniture making is more about what's in your head than what's in your hands.

The many craftsmen and indeed hobbyists that I've met, the ones that consistently complete projects to a high standard, overwhelmingly share certain characteristics. They tend to be very methodical and patient, they think a job through in advance and prepare carefully, they don't rush at things and they're not easily distracted. They automatically break a project into interim stages and then focus exclusively on the immediate task at hand. When faced with a choice they carefully evaluate the options then make a clear decision, they don't keep returning to a decision like a dog to its puke, they just get on with stuff. They're realistic about what they undertake, they tackle jobs that are do-able if stretching, rather than chasing quixotic fantasies. When they start things they invariably finish them, they're not surrounded by half finished projects or discarded hobbies.

People like that tend to be good cabinet makers, for everyone else there's video games.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Tasky and DW, I have a challenge for you both. See if you can find any comments from the other one which might improve your own levels of knowledge. If you both stopped trying to "win" you might be surprised at what you can learn from each other.

Cheshirechappy (and others), whilst I would agree that there are such things as aptitude and innate intelligence I would suggest that these things are often overstated in comparison to hard work, practice and dedication. I have played the fiddle since I was four years old and am a competent player. I used to play in a touring folk band and often heard people say things like " your so lucky to have such a gift". This was always annoying as nobody "gave" the skills to me, I was not born with some special "ability", they were hard won by spending my entire childhood practicing the violin 1/2 an hour to an hour every day. My mother did not force me to play, but the choice was either have lessons and practice every day, or don't have lessons. It is my contention that with appropriate guidance and hard work most people can achieve a level of competence at most things. We may not be able to be Newton or Einstein, but most of us could have been physics professors.
As a child I used to play cricket with Nasser Hussein. He would regularly knock my best bowling across the boundary. It is worth considering the fact that his family was cricket obsessed and from a very early age he would play cricket for hours and hours every day. He trained with the best local coaches and became a test cricketer and England's captain. I on the other hand played for my school team and sometimes messed about in the nets, but was more focused on violin than cricket. I am not saying that all that training made it inevitable that he would captain England, indeed the best footballer at my school only achieved a short spell in the Vauxhall Conference league with Barnet FC. What I am saying is that without focus and dedication one can never achieve, and that most of us can achieve a proficient level in most fields if we work hard enough.
In regards to woodworking and the "10,000 hours" thing, I would contend whilst this is not a "law" it is a good rule of thumb. I often hear people say "oh I tried that but I couldn't do it". I read posts on here with people saying things like "hand planes just don't work for me" or "I can't saw square and true with a hand saw", when the simple fact is they are doing something wrong that could easily be corrected with the right technique and some practice. I think this line of thinking prevents people from achieving to their full potential. I teach my daughter the violin, and when we approach something hard I always say "of course you can't do it, that's why you're learning, so you will be able to do it".

 

[Jacob]

I agree with all the above

T.....I teach my daughter the violin, and when we approach something hard I always say "of course you can't do it, that's why you're learning, so you will be able to do it".

Similar prob with grandson - he gives up on maths tests and guesses the answers.
I tell him no need to get the right answer straight off, getting the wrong answer is perfectly OK and the whole point of the exercise - it tells him what he needs to get up to speed on. He was quite relieved and doesn't have a prob catching up.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Paddy, as you mentioned cricket - how would you teach someone to catch who can't catch a ball thrown slowly from eight feet away?

 

[Jacob]

Paddy, as you mentioned cricket - how would you teach someone to catch who can't catch a ball thrown slowly from eight feet away?

It usually means sight problems, most likely having one eye dominant, which makes judging distance a problem.
I can't play cricket either but it was an optician who explained it to me years later in my 30s, why I'd been such a failure at small ball games. I wish I'd known sooner. Big balls OK I was good at basket ball, middlin at footer.