Everbuild Woodworm treatment? + Permethrin on dining table?

[Krome10]

Hi all

Got some woodworm in our dining table which needs treating. The table has been oiled/waxed/stained/varnished (not sure which) in the past. It DOES water stain and mark quite easily. But we just tried putting a droplet of water on it and it remained beaded on their for a couple of minutes.

As such, I'm not sure whether the boron water based products will be suitable and am looking into the Permethrin solvent based products.

I wondered if anyone could share an opinion on whether it would be a bad idea to use it on a dining table. We use place matts (and plates!) so there's no direct food contact. But it is in the kitchen and we do eat off it.....

Any other advice would be great.

Also, this product is a lot cheaper but I don't think it is based on Permethrin (there's just a lot of long words in the Safety Data Sheet). Anyone used it? Any opinions?

Pics attached.

Many thanks

Max

PS - the table has metal legs and the top is only 1cm thick so is easily removable for application outdoors.

 

[Chrispy]

Not much help with the products you ask about but are you sure there are any worm left? it looks from your picture that they have flown a long time ago.

The way I under stand that the killers work is that they don't kill the active worm, they will kill the eggs on/near the surface or they sterilize the emerging beetle as they eat their way out thus breaking their life cycle, so you only need to have a toxic film on the surface for them to eat through, for this I believe you can get a anti worm wax polish to wax your furniture with.

 

[Krome10]

Thanks Chrispy.

And just to clarify, the underside of the table has a lot of much fresher holes (sharp edges). And there is a a lot of frass coming out of the holes when I tap it. So I think it is active....

 

[CHJ]

I personally would get it out of the house and burnt ASAP, and any expenditure I would put toward new wood or a complete new table.

 

[Krome10]

I personally would get it out of the house and burnt ASAP, and any expenditure I would put toward new wood or a complete new table.

It's interesting because some people seem to take this attitude toward it (and that's certainly the feeling I have always had toward it myself). But since reading more and more about it, I think I have calmed down some. I've learnt that woodworm do not like wood that is kept in homes with "average" conditions. They like damp conditions and a high humidity level in the wood, neither of which is likely in a centrally heated home with good ventilation. Furthermore, they do not penetrate many wood finishes (varnishes, wax, etc). So once they have fled, if the wood is "finished" the chances of re-entry are a lot less.

So with a good course of treatment, a re-wax/finish, and a house with adequate heating and ventilation, I can't help but feel we can deal with the woodworm ok.....

If I'm being naive on the other hand, it would be good to hear with any further relevant info.

Many thanks

Max

 

[Krome10]

RE: the Everbuild product. Here's the Safety Data:

http://www.everbuild.co.uk/image/data/MSDS Wood Care/Lumberjack Woodworm Killer iss1.pdf

The active ingredients:

M-PHENOXYBENZYL 3-(2,2-DICHLOROVINYL)-2,2-DIMETHYLCYCLOPROPANECARBOXYLATE

(say that after a few pints)!.... are listed almost verbatim here:

http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00Chem/ChComplex/perm.htm


So perhaps it is Permethrin based after all. It's certainly a whole load cheaper than other brands..... Any thoughts from those in the know (or those in white coats)?

Cheers

 

[Krome10]

Here's a link to some more photos of the table:

http://s263.photobucket.com/user/Maxdread/library/Woodworm in Dining Table

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I would opt for the diametric opposite of destroying it. Our entire heritage and antiques industry would be bankrupt if we took such a consumerist attitude to furniture. If the piece is good enough to use and you like it's aesthetics then its quality is good enough to preserve. In fact, it deserves more tlc than new IMHO because it has served you well and has earned the right to respect and care

We're it me, I would continue to pursue the track you're on, perhaps call the tek depts of the product manufacturers you're considering and ask their advice on food safety

 

[CHJ]

I would opt for the diametric opposite of destroying it. Our entire heritage and antiques industry would be bankrupt if we took such a consumerist attitude to furniture. If the piece is good enough to use and you like it's aesthetics then its quality is good enough to preserve. ...

PS - the table has metal legs and the top is only 1cm thick so is easily removable for application outdoors.

Consumer attitude? I think more a little bit of realism.

 

[CHJ]

[...
So with a good course of treatment, a re-wax/finish, and a house with adequate heating and ventilation, I can't help but feel we can deal with the woodworm ok.....
Max

Do you have one room in the house that is not regularly occupied like a spare bedroom that is not heated to the same level, do you ever see silverfish in the bathroom/toilet, if you disturb the skirting or piping covers. Is your loft, under kitchen sink, utility room free from condensation and moisture?

If the table has active woodworm in it now they are obviously surviving in the current environment.

I f it was an Item of furniture made by your great grandfather and had spent some years in a damp farmhouse (as I have) and acquired minor infection in the base, then treatment/replacement/repair I consider in order, for something that has the level of infection of that piece I'm afraid I personally would not entertain it.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Appreciated a piece with metal legs and a thin top isn't going on sale at Southerby's any time soon But if it's rescue-able without risk to property or health....the make do and mend solution strikes me as the "right" one (on several levels). But in particular if it has any sentimental value.

 

[MIGNAL]

Who knows when the woodworm first became active. They can lay dormant for up to 10 years. Their flight time has just past, usually you see them in late March and April. They need a minimum moisture content to survive, which is why you tend to see severe damage in cellars and under leaking baths.
Forget all that chemical ****. Place the table in a dry environment and it will be the end of Anobium Punctatum. They'll move on to fresh and better pastures.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

there y'are...good answer...do nothing...keep table...simples

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I'd put it in a nice warm, dry place. My woodstove. Sorry, I wouldn't entertain keeping it in my garage, let alone my house. I agree totally with Chas.

 

[Dangermouse]

Personally I'd burn it ASAP. but by now I expect the little buggers are all over your house, The table to be frank looks like its fit for the tip, with that amount of worm the structure must be very weak and will probably crumble very soon if any weight is put on it. if you really want to save it, keep the legs and make a new top. If you treat it with chemical, then if it was me i'd never eat off it again. If you insist in keeping all of it, take off the top, get a large container that will hold the top submerged and soak it for a few days in paraffin. That will kill any worm and eggs and be harmless when dried out.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

My cousin used to make sculptures from driftwood, which he stored until dry. Some of this attracted worm, which in turn infested the whole house. He had to get the whole house including the roof treated - it cost him an arm and a leg.

 

[MIGNAL]

I've had 3 bad infestations of woodworm in my workshop over the last 30 years. Each time it was Maple being brought from a damp environment or straight from suppliers of air dried stock. I still have many of those very pieces in the workshop that show the flight holes and tracks. I have a healthy supply of figured Maple (they love Maple) that run into a couple of thousand pounds worth, not to mention all the other timber. Send me a piece of the most infested wood you have ever come across and I'll gladly place it in between my stock. They won't infest my wood for the simple reason that it is too dry for them. Science tells us that. That's also why I haven't seen one shred of evidence that they have attacked my timber despite previously introduced infested timber.

 

[MIGNAL]

My cousin used to make sculptures from driftwood, which he stored until dry. Some of this attracted worm, which in turn infested the whole house. He had to get the whole house including the roof treated - it cost him an arm and a leg.

I spent 20 years in the domestic house bashing game. I started off as an electricians mate, lifting floorboards and drilling joists. 90 % of the houses were of Victorian construction. I later progressed to being a Chippy. I can't tell you how many different houses I worked in. It's in the thousands. The ONLY time I saw infestation of woodworm was in obvious damp conditions: Cellars, furniture stored in Cellars, bathrooms where there was obvious sign of damp/leaks, skirting boards on damp walls. All the floorboards and joists that were in dry conditions were absolutely clear even though there was woodworm in parts of the house that were damp.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

As others have said, dry wooden furniture, eg, indoor residential furniture that never gets above about 12% or 13% moisture content, and frequently dryer at 6% or 8% MC is a particularly harsh environment for common furniture beetle to survive. Research and data suggest in fact that 12% is the lowest wood moisture content at which newly hatched furniture beetle eggs can survive. The beetle does not attack live wood in trees or wet unseasoned wood stored outside—it likes cool, damp conditions where RH remains at about 55 per cent or above. However, even though furniture and other wooden artefacts or structures within nearly all typically climate controlled habitable buildings today are not good hunting grounds for the beetle, some of the rest of the fabric of the building may well be. For example, damper and cooler roof spaces, cellars and wooden structures attached to the main part of the building could provide ideal conditions for egg laying, larval development and subsequent emergence of the adult.

Permethrin treatment should kill adults as they emerge from wood after their larval stage because it is a contact pesticide that passes through the insect’s outer layer or cuticle into the body and primarily affects the nervous system. It is not a poison that needs ingestion; emerging adults merely chew their way out from their pupating chamber just below the wood surface and they do not feed, hence the importance of using a contact type poison. The same poison will kill larvae emerging from the egg assuming the egg is not too deep, and it can kill larvae near the wood surface, and it does discourage adult females from laying eggs. A typical flooding application of the poison to the whole wood surface results in penetration into the wood of between 2- 6 mm, and frequently two or three floodings are required to achieve even this sort of penetration into the wood fibres. Repeat doses are required over a long period to be effective; a heavy infestation of woodworm can take three to five years to eradicate. Slainte.

 

[MIGNAL]

That stuff can penetrate wood to a depth of 6 mm's ? Must be nasty stuff. I can't get wood dye to penetrate timber much more than 0.4 mm's after submerging the stuff in dye for 2 months!
How's it done? (apart from pressure).