Ever wonder how they did computing before computers?

[Spectric]

So many memories round here, looking back to my early working life I can remember the large rooms full of women typist, then the rooms full of drawing boards, some on stands and others bench and all the draughtsmen were men. Then when you wanted to look at a drawing there were these cabinets with large shallow drawers and all looked like furniture, ornate and highly polished. Also a few of the draughtsman smoked pipes! I think in some ways modern technology distances people from reality, they lose the feel and instinct, as mentioned giving non realistic dimensions on drawings and you get the same in metrology where people state temperature to six or more decimal places.

Probably yes, the manufacturers would not have added all this technology if buyers were not looking for it, they do know their market, if not they go out of business.

In the early days both Fords and General motors just made cars and they sold them by the million, it was the Japanese who began market research and realised adding certain features was a selling point, that and also people would love cars that did not drip oil all over the driveway.

The Great Trigonometrical Survey of India was a massive enterprise concerned with mapping and measuring all the territories of the subcontinent controlled by the British empire.

Looks like India was done before Airy did the UK in 1835, and in both cases with manual projections. I think in them days before Airy we were only concerned with parts the French may invade, ie south coast and kent.

 

[clogs]

when I lived in France a good friend was a service manager for a big Renault dealership.....
he said they had a special factory phone number just for electronic problems....
quite often after hours of trying to sort it....Reno either sent and engineer (I'm sure they had roving engineers working outta vans perm) or for serious faults
the cars went back to the factory.....
Also, even if they supplied and serviced any of their models if u wanted to part exchange it for a new one....they wouldn't give a price for ur's until it had been on a computor to check for faults.....

Biggest prob with electronics is ask for a quote for say ECU and then when it comes in ask for it to be made cheaper....
lastley, Sony many years ago bought in a load of Chinese made electronics for the TV boards...
after a while major probs with the telly's.....after that they now only use japanese made items....
but that may have changed due to qual improvements in China.......
My forever vehicle is a 1999 VW Kombi, 1.9TD.....just comming upto 470,000klms....
sell it, never....I'd rather eat wasps.....hahaha...

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Weather forecast models need supercomputers. Local (not global) models divide the atmosphere into small grids ~1.5km across, ~70 different levels in the atmosphere, processed in small time steps.

The origins of numerical weather prediction, as physical atmospheric processes were increasingly better understood, lie with a scientist (Richardson). In 1922 he envisioned a large auditorium of thousands of people performing the calculations and passing them to others.

The principles were spot on but it predated the first computers by 40-50 years. Sadly it did not work - completing the task manually with sufficient precision meant that the forecast lagged elapsed time.

There is no point in a forecast for two days hence when it takes four days to produce.

 

[mikej460]

Maybe we should start a Monty Python type thread on 'What have computers ever done for us?'..

 

[Jonm]

Maybe we should start a Monty Python type thread on 'What have computers ever done for us?'..

CNC machines, 3D printers neither of which I own.

 

[JimJay]

It's interesting to read about the "computerisation" of cars, which is something that I'm definitely agin, especially with the replace-not-repair approach that is taken in the UK - or at least was: it's been years since I left. Here in Bulgaria there's a plethora of small vehicle service shops, usually specialising in particular marques, where they'll whip out a dud PCB and repair it on the spot/overnight for comparatively peanuts. Of course, the main dealers don't do that, claiming it's unreliable - but I've not had any problems with such repairs in nearly two decades here and saved a packet in the process.

On the other hand, my wife's new Suzuki Ignis (don't laugh - she prefers small cars and you need a 4x4 in this neck of the woods) is always having problems with the electronics, usually in the form of spurious "warnings". Since it's under warranty, it's annoying rather than expensive but the hassle she has to go through to get them reset has to be experienced to be believed - and whoever thought that having one warning obscuring another was a good idea ought to be fired....

Just as an aside, one change which always amuses me is that the annual "Technical Control" (MOT) test is videoed these days - not so long ago you'd just call up to book one and then pop over before they closed to collect the certificate: "No need to waste time bringing your car here, sir....."

 

[johnny]

This is a very interesting thread. I'm 72 apparently, though how that came about so quickly is a mystery to me, and I certainly remember using Log Tables and still have my fancy German slide rule. I was never a mathematical wizard, hence my choice of reading Law at uni.

However, my wife is a mathematician who became a telecommunications engineer and is now a professor of telecommunications at the Technical University here. As with most/all of the countries behind the Iron Curtain, in the Commie days there were special schools for children with an aptitude in areas which were deemed important to the state: mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, languages, finance, sport etc all had separate schools where all the other usual school subjects were also taught (including the compulsory Russian, of course) but with advanced classes in the childrens' specialism. There were slide rules and log tables at her Mathematics school but the pupils weren't allowed to have such things in exams: all calculations had to be done in their heads, as even using paper was considered a sign of weakness. Failing an exam meant instant expulsion to an ordinary school and a drab life of boredom.

I should add that my wife is a couple of decades younger than I am. That's just to set the scene for what comes next. She can do mathematical marvels in her head while she's lecturing and write them up on the whiteboard without thinking but she always likes me to do the shopping because she has a real problem with things that I find simple (because they are, I'm no genius), such as which butter is the cheapest per kilo. She can also design complex electronic circuits in her head but calls me every time her PC won't turn on or her smartphone does something weird.

She's an amazing mathematician but she's hopeless at simple arithmetic.....

I'm the same age as you and I can vividly remember endlessly reciting the times table up to 12 or so when in Primary School and that has undoubtedly enabled me to be able to add and subtract in my head many times faster than using a calculator to this day... 60+ years later.

Although I was considered quite bright and had an accelerated education and went to a Private School, I failed miserably at exams . When I decided in my late 20s to go to Uni to study Architecture I had to study and pass 0 levels and A levels and an HND before managing to to get entrance to the Oxford School of Architecture. It was quite a shock to find by then that everything was now Metric which seemed totally alien at first but by the time I got to HND Construction studies I loved it . Bought my first scientific calculator Casio fx-3600P which has now been in use for over 40 years and still works despite being run over by a car 20 years ago.! I received a free mature student grant of several thousand pounds a year back in 1980 which enabled me, as a student ,to run a car and rent 2x flats as well . How lucky we were eh !

Like your Wife, I am still able to manage complex structural Engineering calculations and even troubleshoot complex Electronic auto Fuel injection and ignition systems but find many simple basic tasks a real struggle ....

I fear that in comparison to the high standards of education in other European and Far Eastern Education Countries, the UK is badly failing our future generations with this 'dumbed down' multi-choice ,tick-box type education curriculum that we offer our Kids today

 

[Ozi]

It's interesting to read about the "computerisation" of cars, which is something that I'm definitely agin, especially with the replace-not-repair approach that is taken in the UK - or at least was: it's been years since I left. Here in Bulgaria there's a plethora of small vehicle service shops, usually specialising in particular marques, where they'll whip out a dud PCB and repair it on the spot/overnight for comparatively peanuts. Of course, the main dealers don't do that, claiming it's unreliable - but I've not had any problems with such repairs in nearly two decades here and saved a packet in the process.

On the other hand, my wife's new Suzuki Ignis (don't laugh - she prefers small cars and you need a 4x4 in this neck of the woods) is always having problems with the electronics, usually in the form of spurious "warnings". Since it's under warranty, it's annoying rather than expensive but the hassle she has to go through to get them reset has to be experienced to be believed - and whoever thought that having one warning obscuring another was a good idea ought to be fired....

Just as an aside, one change which always amuses me is that the annual "Technical Control" (MOT) test is videoed these days - not so long ago you'd just call up to book one and then pop over before they closed to collect the certificate: "No need to waste time bringing your car here, sir....."

Utterly agree about the replace not repair attitude. Some of the computerization of cars is necessary and useful, a lot is just there to put a tick in the box, JD Powers ran an interesting survey recently showing how unused some "necessary" features are. Working in the industry I get to see some of the customer feedback surveys and it still amazes me how many people pay extra for features they either don't understand, don't use or even later claim not to have while the car has to lug it all around till it gets to the scrap yard. Some of it is also just a con. I won't name the vehicle or the company and it was quite some time ago but I once worked on a car where buying the "sport" version got you a chrome ring on the gear stick, two more on the front door cards and a rubber mat in one of the cubbyholes all for a mere £1000. That was it, no engine mods, no suspension mods but it sold.

 

[Jester129]

I have a Skoda Octavia. There is another model that has a rear wing and a 'VR' (I think) badge. They both have the same body and engine. If I put my car in 'Sport' mode, it becomes the 'VR' version without the rear wing and the badge! Beautiful cars, mind.

 

[Jonm]

Volvo 850 had a 170bhp, petrol 2435 cc, five cylinder model with 20 valve head. Also a 140bhp petrol 2435 cc, five cylinder model with 10 valve head.

It was replaced by the V70, very similar car. The series II had a 170bhp model, petrol 2435 cc, five cylinder model with 20 valve head. Also a 140bhp, petrol 2435 cc, five cylinder model with, yes you have guessed it, a 20 valve head.

The engines are identical except for the program in the ecu. Edit not identical in price though!

 

[Spectric]

worked on a car where buying the "sport" version got you a chrome ring on the gear stick, two more on the front door cards and a rubber mat in one of the cubbyholes all for a mere £1000. That was it, no engine mods, no suspension mods but it sold.

Just standard marketing practice, you have a range of bread and butter motors that suit the majority but then you have others which for little added cost can deliver far greater profits, it is amazing how just a simple badge can convince a customer that this car may be a few thousand pounds more but it is "special" whilst only costing the OEM a few dollars of plastic tack to achieve. This was something the Japanese and now the Chinese have trouble coming to terms with, the badge engineering concept used in the west to sell cars rather than just using a simple number designation. It is the same with cloths, take a dirt cheap item made for peanuts in the east, stick some label on it and call it "designer" and along comes some muppet who then gives you several hundred percent profit when they buy it, a very expensive little label! Even more profitable are womens handbags, have you seen what some women will pay for something that has the same functionality as a shopping bag! Has anyone thought of "designer" handbags made from wood?

 

[AES]

Yup, in some circles the Marketing people are called "Marketing flower arrangers". While they do serve a sensible function sometimes ("the right goods at the right place at the right time") and all that malarkey, sometimes - mostly? - they do seem to be a waste of oxygen.

OTOH, there have been some notable "engineering-led" firms who have very cleverly developed some new-fangled widget, only to find out after a lot of time and expense that nobody wanted to buy it.

IMHO a mixture of both is probably an ideal, like so many other aspects of life.

Interesting though this thread has been to me, and to several others too it seems, this thread has come a long way from "computing, etc"!

 

[Ozi]

Just standard marketing practice, you have a range of bread and butter motors that suit the majority but then you have others which for little added cost can deliver far greater profits, it is amazing how just a simple badge can convince a customer that this car may be a few thousand pounds more but it is "special" whilst only costing the OEM a few dollars of plastic tack to achieve. This was something the Japanese and now the Chinese have trouble coming to terms with, the badge engineering concept used in the west to sell cars rather than just using a simple number designation. It is the same with cloths, take a dirt cheap item made for peanuts in the east, stick some label on it and call it "designer" and along comes some muppet who then gives you several hundred percent profit when they buy it, a very expensive little label! Even more profitable are womens handbags, have you seen what some women will pay for something that has the same functionality as a shopping bag! Has anyone thought of "designer" handbags made from wood?

Just bought some socks made of bamboo so anythings possible!

 

[Ozi]

Yup, in some circles the Marketing people are called "Marketing flower arrangers". While they do serve a sensible function sometimes ("the right goods at the right place at the right time") and all that malarkey, sometimes - mostly? - they do seem to be a waste of oxygen.

OTOH, there have been some notable "engineering-led" firms who have very cleverly developed some new-fangled widget, only to find out after a lot of time and expense that nobody wanted to buy it.

IMHO a mixture of both is probably an ideal, like so many other aspects of life.

Interesting though this thread has been to me, and to several others too it seems, this thread has come a long way from "computing, etc"!

Agreed we have wondered off topic, partly my fault, and it was a very interesting starting point. Shows what was possible pre the electronic era.

 

[Spectric]

Just bought some socks made of bamboo so anythings possible!

You really do not want any bamboo splinters, they must be the worst type to get.

 

[J-G]

Just bought some socks made of bamboo so anythings possible!

I've been 'fooled' by that marketing ploy as well! Bamboo may be used to produce the cellulose from which the 'Rayon' thread is made but the thread is not made from bamboo fiber as the advertising is intended to make you believe.

The concept that 'Bamboo' is a luxury material is down to it being 'Anti-microbial', 'Hypoallergenic', 'Eco-Friendly', 'Breathable', 'Wrinkle Free' and whilst Bamboo itself is anti-microbial, the cellulose that is derived from it is just that - Cellulose. Bamboo is used because it is 60% Cellulose with a high lignin content. Once converted to cellulose, all these 'natural' qualities are gone of course.

I bought some 'Luxury Bamboo Bed Sheets' at new year. All the advertising made great play of the 'facts' about the properties of Bamboo and there was no mention on the web-site or indeed on the packaging, of 'Bamboo Blend'. It was only after unpacking and happening to notice on the - legally required - label that it eventually becomes clear that the thread is made from a proprietory blend of cellulose that is 40% derived from Bamboo and 60% from other microfiber.

I did raise a complaint with the Advertising Standards Authority but got a very weak "Noted' response!

 

[powertools]

It's interesting to read about the "computerisation" of cars, which is something that I'm definitely agin, especially with the replace-not-repair approach that is taken in the UK - or at least was: it's been years since I left. Here in Bulgaria there's a plethora of small vehicle service shops, usually specialising in particular marques, where they'll whip out a dud PCB and repair it on the spot/overnight for comparatively peanuts. Of course, the main dealers don't do that, claiming it's unreliable - but I've not had any problems with such repairs in nearly two decades here and saved a packet in the process.

On the other hand, my wife's new Suzuki Ignis (don't laugh - she prefers small cars and you need a 4x4 in this neck of the woods) is always having problems with the electronics, usually in the form of spurious "warnings". Since it's under warranty, it's annoying rather than expensive but the hassle she has to go through to get them reset has to be experienced to be believed - and whoever thought that having one warning obscuring another was a good idea ought to be fired....

Just as an aside, one change which always amuses me is that the annual "Technical Control" (MOT) test is videoed these days - not so long ago you'd just call up to book one and then pop over before they closed to collect the certificate: "No need to waste time bringing your car here, sir....."

We have a Suzuki Ignis that is almost 1 year old and our experience is that it is a very capable small car that is a budget price to purchase and very cheap to run at over 60 miles to the gallon.

 

[AES]

Agreed we have wondered off topic, partly my fault, and it was a very interesting starting point. Shows what was possible pre the electronic era.

It wasn't really a complaint about thread drift, and in any case, I'm just as guilty as anyone else - not for the first time either!

 

[JimJay]

We have a Suzuki Ignis that is almost 1 year old and our experience is that it is a very capable small car that is a budget price to purchase and very cheap to run at over 60 miles to the gallon.

I have to admit that I try not to drive, or be driven in, my wife's car. It looks nice and is reasonably nippy but the thing that really puts me off is that the suspension appears to be made from breeze blocks. We live in a suburb of Sofia, in fact just outside what used to be a village; it's main characteristics now are that it has super views and the main Street is cobbled. My car, also a 4x4, just glides over those cobbles but the Ignis makes you think that your teeth are being shaken out of your gums.

Suzuki here are rubbish and when my wife's AC went on the blink it took five months to get the part for a warranty repair - not good when the summers here can get ridiculously hot, and the winters very cold. She has permanent problems with fault lights showing non-existent problems - and who had the bright idea of having fault lights for tyre pressure that come on when you change a wheel and can't be reset by the customer? Here, winter tyres are essential (and more or less mandatory, since insurance companies use not having them as an excuse to reject claims) and many people simply have two sets of wheels. The tyre-changing garages reset the fault light - but it usually comes on again a bit later. On my car, resetting the tyre pressure fault light is very simple - and it stays reset unless the pressure really has changed.

 

[clogs]

to add to Jim-Jay's answer
we also have a camera to record vehicles for the MOT.....
On our logbook there's no colour mentioned of the vehicle.....
on our's we had to remove the Bull Bars and tow ball for our revisit......just checking they said.....
Mind if u look around here, how some of these vehicles are on the road at all amazes me.....

Back to computors, after visiting car junk yards (recycle centers) over Europe most are now filled with undamaged vehicles.....it's just unrepairable electronic faults or to costly to fix....
which is just great for the planet...

my vehicle would perhaps get around 10-15mpg better if it were electronicaly controlled ......
but for HOW LONG.....????? no thanks.....