Before calculators and computers almost all precise mathematical calculations relied logarithmic tables. In GB engineering relied on 7 figure log tables for accuracy. The tables enabled ship builders, railway builders. civil engineers, military engineers and most other engineering activities to produce accurate results. John Napier [around 1615] promoted the use of the logarithm. His investigations enabled the production of the slide rule which provided an easier but less accurate method of calculation compared to log tables. School children up to around the advent of the calculator had technical books that would include 4 figure log table for calculations.
Ever wonder how they did computing before computers?
- Thread starter Peri
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Some things were better before the electronic's were added, we have now got to the point where some functions are controlled by a module, done on the cheap and now can make things dangerous. Any level of complexity can be perfectly fine but it incurrs an oncost, a good example is the body control modules used on some cars. On my Peugeot it started with the wipers working completely at random, at the same time all the instruments such as the speedo stopped working. Now it is also the brake lights, indicators, hazzard warning lights and electric windows. This is already becoming unsafe as other road users are unaware of you braking or having any intention of turning, I am not sure how such systems pass the use and construction of motor vehicle regulations because at one point systems such as hazzard warning had to function if all else fails, simply done by a good old fashioned switch with a fused supply direct from the battery. The latest is that the vehicle now locks you in and you cannot turn the engine off, it takes around six minutes and I suspect it is when the tank mounted fuel pump drops out.
At other times it just cuts out without warning, so all in all it has become unsafe to use, to repair the garage cannot give a firm quote because it is in their words electrical and they do not know what will need replacing or how long it may take or if it is worth fixing. This is according to the garage becoming a nightmare with some cars where relatively new cars are just becoming not economical to repair.
At other times it just cuts out without warning, so all in all it has become unsafe to use, to repair the garage cannot give a firm quote because it is in their words electrical and they do not know what will need replacing or how long it may take or if it is worth fixing. This is according to the garage becoming a nightmare with some cars where relatively new cars are just becoming not economical to repair.
Technology is great when it works, but when it doesn't it's worse than useless. It absolutely drives me insane, because the designers have never experienced the frustration caused when it fails. I have a saying 'Whoever designed this never actually used it.' I drove around for about 3 years with a failed 'comfort control processer' which was about £900 to replace. The windows wouldn't open and none of the heating/ventilation worked. On really hot days in summer, I was tempted to drive around in my underwear, lol. My daughters Citroen developed a random fault with the alarm. What a nightmare, so took the car to the dealer for them to fix under warranty. Returned to pick the car up and was told they couldn't find any faults. These things happen. The receptionist said they will just bring the car round from the rear of the garage. A minute later, I could hear an alarm going off and saw this young mechanic sheepishly driving the car past the window, alarm blaring. The perfect time for it to fail. I couldn't stop laughing.
Hopefully the 'right to repair' will eventually lead to more fixable technology
AES
Established Member
Yeah, being an old fogey I do get the feeling that we add some things (e.g. automation) "just because we can": IF any cost/benefit analysis is done at all, I BET it doesn't get beyond the manufacturer asking "Does this new widget make it easier/cheaper/faster to make?" If YES, then it's IN, and forget the rest of the chain - servicing and repair people, end users, buyers, etc, etc.
OK, as above, I AM an old fogey!
OK, as above, I AM an old fogey!
Peri
Established Member
My workmate used to say "Any id1ot can come up with mark 2 - coming up with mark 1 takes the brains"
This is a very interesting thread. I'm 72 apparently, though how that came about so quickly is a mystery to me, and I certainly remember using Log Tables and still have my fancy German slide rule. I was never a mathematical wizard, hence my choice of reading Law at uni.
However, my wife is a mathematician who became a telecommunications engineer and is now a professor of telecommunications at the Technical University here. As with most/all of the countries behind the Iron Curtain, in the Commie days there were special schools for children with an aptitude in areas which were deemed important to the state: mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, languages, finance, sport etc all had separate schools where all the other usual school subjects were also taught (including the compulsory Russian, of course) but with advanced classes in the childrens' specialism. There were slide rules and log tables at her Mathematics school but the pupils weren't allowed to have such things in exams: all calculations had to be done in their heads, as even using paper was considered a sign of weakness. Failing an exam meant instant expulsion to an ordinary school and a drab life of boredom.
I should add that my wife is a couple of decades younger than I am. That's just to set the scene for what comes next. She can do mathematical marvels in her head while she's lecturing and write them up on the whiteboard without thinking but she always likes me to do the shopping because she has a real problem with things that I find simple (because they are, I'm no genius), such as which butter is the cheapest per kilo. She can also design complex electronic circuits in her head but calls me every time her PC won't turn on or her smartphone does something weird.
She's an amazing mathematician but she's hopeless at simple arithmetic.....
However, my wife is a mathematician who became a telecommunications engineer and is now a professor of telecommunications at the Technical University here. As with most/all of the countries behind the Iron Curtain, in the Commie days there were special schools for children with an aptitude in areas which were deemed important to the state: mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, languages, finance, sport etc all had separate schools where all the other usual school subjects were also taught (including the compulsory Russian, of course) but with advanced classes in the childrens' specialism. There were slide rules and log tables at her Mathematics school but the pupils weren't allowed to have such things in exams: all calculations had to be done in their heads, as even using paper was considered a sign of weakness. Failing an exam meant instant expulsion to an ordinary school and a drab life of boredom.
I should add that my wife is a couple of decades younger than I am. That's just to set the scene for what comes next. She can do mathematical marvels in her head while she's lecturing and write them up on the whiteboard without thinking but she always likes me to do the shopping because she has a real problem with things that I find simple (because they are, I'm no genius), such as which butter is the cheapest per kilo. She can also design complex electronic circuits in her head but calls me every time her PC won't turn on or her smartphone does something weird.
She's an amazing mathematician but she's hopeless at simple arithmetic.....
Many years ago (too long to remember) I could do simultaneous quadratic equations in my head, now days I have problems just adding up three numbers, I now have to write everything down, also stopping halfway up the stairs, was I going up or coming down. 
Many years ago (too long to remember) I could do simultaneous quadratic equations in my head, now days I have problems just adding up three numbers, I now have to write everything down, also stopping halfway up the stairs, was I going up or coming down.
Amen to that! I mean the stairs bit, not the equations.
My wife worries about her old parents, as do I - although they're only a little older than I am. I do wonder how she'll fare when we're all gone..... probably very well!
My dad worked for Renault for many years, and I was a great fan of French cars. Unfortunately they don't seem to be very good at electronics. Since cars have become increasingly dependent on ecu controlling everything, their cars have taken a dive as their electronics just don't seem to be at all reliable or have any great life expectancy. No idea why this should be, the French have always had some fine engineers.
When you think about it isn't it amazing how things were designed and built before the advent of powerful computers! I'm (only!) 50 and work in the design/ construction industry and when I graduated from college in around 1992/ 93 CAD was really just in its infancy. I spent the first few years of my working life as a junior technician/ draughtsman in a small architects office, where everything was drawn by hand using pen and ink (Rotring/ Staedtler- 0.18, 0.25, 0.35mm etc) and the finished drawings were reproduced on a dyeline machine which used ammonia as a developing agent- it stank! When drawing up large housing schemes with road layouts we used a set of large radius curves which came in a well made mahogany box- it was Victorian! Occasionally we would be asked to draw up designs in imperial scales- 1/8" to 1' etc. Areas on maps (for conveyancy purposes) were calculated by breaking up (irregular shaped tracts of land for example) into triangles, which were then calculated for area and added together. All lettering/ labelling was done by hand or with stencils. Some of the draughtsmen were particularly good at hand lettering, each had their own style. I draw everything (except for the occasional quick hand sketch) with CAD now and while I wouldn't like to go back to the days of scratching out errors and making revisions to sheets with a razor blade there was some art/ craft in the draughting of old which is missing now.
What you actually say here is that you decided not to replace or repair the fault because of cost. That is a different situation that it not being repairable or replaceable. The right to repair will possibly make it more economical to repair but don’t expect it to make that big a difference for something with a complex PCB. As an example you can get a battery replaced in an iPhone by apple for £100, by a fix it shop for £50 or as a DIY kit for about £20. This is a reasonable savings expectation where a part can be replaced. If the problem is with the logic board then the equipment needed to diagnose and repair a fault plus the labour could actually have the opposite cost impact. The DIYer having to spent £1,000s on test equipment and rework stations to achieve the repair.
The area where I think right to repair really needs strong legislation is in end of life software. The ability to modify, bug fix and patch obsolete products would make a big difference to the life of many electronic products. However with something like a car which undergoes type approval for safety systems there are also arguments against that.
Jonm
Established Member
I can understand having electronics to control the engine for efficiency/pollution reduction and to control an automatic gearbox. I have a leased car obtained via a relative who works for a major manufacturing group. Get a new car every six months and they are fabulous to drive in terms of performance, efficiency and gear change. The other complicated electronics are OTT as far as I am concerned. Your experience is one reason why I have gone for this lease arrangement, cannot get a load of hassle and bills for thousands because some chip has gone faulty.
My understanding is that wiring on cars became so complicated that they reduced it by say, having one power wire going to the light clusters then when you “switch” on a light it sends a signal to a computer which in turn sends a signal to the light clusters which has another electronic box which turns the relevant light on. Then put the lot in a sealed unit, what could possibly go wrong? Widely reported in 2018 that some small popular family cars cost over £800 to change a bulb. System is called CANbus.
The question to ask is why did it become so complicated and centralised! I have worked for a major OEM in their R&D on vehicle electrical systems and these sort of questions were being raised back in the nineties when the worry was that even the main dealers would struggle to rectify some faults. The actual CAN bus is a very robust network protocol but once you introduce cheap automotive interconnects and cost saving bean counters, then add in a company whose philosopy was aimed squarely at design for manufacturing and not long term repair then it all starts to go wrong. Some electronics were essential in order to meet EURO emision standards but do you really need a display to tell you that a door is open? It does all come down to cost, cars are not classed as essential but more of a luxury unlike say a tractor which can also have very complicated electronics but done in such a way that the fault finding is built into the system because when it goes wrong farmers are not very happy and want it fixed yesterday.
Have we all become lazy and got what we thought we wanted but now in hindsight it is just a horrendous problem, are we really now incapable of using car windows that have a handle, cannot insert a key to lock our cars, need to be told to close a door or the handbrake is not fully off , it really takes me back to when we called the warning lights "***** Lights".
So the next phase, electric vehicles and maybe driverless ones some day, that will be interesting because they will have to put in proper safety systems otherwise would you want to be in a vehicle with no steering wheel that is just automated, imagine if it decides to turn off the motorway at sixty miles an hour but overshoots the sliproad or reacts to something and just changes lane in front of a lorry!
Jonm
Established Member
Back in 1973 I was working on a construction site for a major contractor. Computerised, co-ordinated highway alignments were provided by the client. Head office had a programmable calculator for calculating setting out angles for the tangent points. On another site I set out an industrial unit, had co-ordinates for the building corners and setting out stations. To get angles and distances would mean sending the co-ordinates by post to head office then waiting for a reply by post. No time for that so I went in one Saturday, did the calculations using seven figure logs, checked them and set out three corners of the building and checked for 90 degree corner, took about 6 hours from memory. On the Monday I set out the fourth corner and checked the last corner, about 15mm out over 100 metres.
In 1974 I moved to a design office. We had a mains calculator for sums, just add, subtract and divide, shared between about 10 people. There was a Hewlett Packard programmable calculator which was shared between 50 people and used for geometry calculations and some simple structural programs. It was very popular and I wrote a few programs for it. Used a main frame computer for traffic modelling, highway alignment and structural design. Still lots of hand calculations and slide rule where it was sufficiently accurate.
To summarise, A levels, university and starting work in 1973, it was hand calculations, four figure logs and slide rules but with computers for more accuracy or complex design. I only used seven figure logs the once.
In 1974 I moved to a design office. We had a mains calculator for sums, just add, subtract and divide, shared between about 10 people. There was a Hewlett Packard programmable calculator which was shared between 50 people and used for geometry calculations and some simple structural programs. It was very popular and I wrote a few programs for it. Used a main frame computer for traffic modelling, highway alignment and structural design. Still lots of hand calculations and slide rule where it was sufficiently accurate.
To summarise, A levels, university and starting work in 1973, it was hand calculations, four figure logs and slide rules but with computers for more accuracy or complex design. I only used seven figure logs the once.
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But what a pain to adjust when the clocks go back.
Bojam
Established Member
The Great Trigonometrical Survey of India was a massive enterprise concerned with mapping and measuring all the territories of the subcontinent controlled by the British empire. It commenced its ‘North-Eastern Himalayan Series’ in 1845 and completed it in 1850. All of the giant Himalayan peaks were visible from the principal observation stations of this series. Every visible peak, great and small, was observed from each observation station, using theodolites to collect data. Calculations were performed by computers!
The identification of Everest as the highest mountain in the world are usually accredited to Radhanath Sikdar, who was the “chief computer”. The accuracy achieved in these calculations was phenomenal. Modern survey methods have rarely adjusted the heights of these Himalayan peaks by more than a few meters.
See this article for an interesting history: Did Radhanath Sikdar Measure the Height of Mount Everest First? – The Wire Science
The identification of Everest as the highest mountain in the world are usually accredited to Radhanath Sikdar, who was the “chief computer”. The accuracy achieved in these calculations was phenomenal. Modern survey methods have rarely adjusted the heights of these Himalayan peaks by more than a few meters.
See this article for an interesting history: Did Radhanath Sikdar Measure the Height of Mount Everest First? – The Wire Science
Jonm
Established Member
Probably yes, the manufacturers would not have added all this technology if buyers were not looking for it, they do know their market, if not they go out of business.
If I was looking to buy a new or nearly new car I do not think I could find what I wanted, ie reliable computers controlling just the essentials like engine and gearbox if auto. Easy to work on and repair plus comfortable to travel in.
Peri
Established Member
I also trained as a draughtsman and used the same type of pens. Later, I used the same pens to do art-work, but haven't done any for about 20 years. I recently decided to get myself another set of Staedtler's and hit up ebay........ where I found them listed as 'Antique drawing implements' haha
Like yourself and Peri I also started working life as a draughtsman (albeit in 1966) with the 'hand tools'. Have still got all the pens, squares, stencils, scale rules (the best one of which reads metric measurements from an imperial drawing
), compasses, dividers, etc. Have tried CAD in it's various forms over the years but find that I can still draw the 'old fashioned way' far quicker than I can using CAD. Can always tell a CAD produced drawing as the dimensions are too accurate i.e. 1.504m instead of 1.5m. Try telling a pipe fitter to install to the dimensions shown on the drawings!!!
Ironically it is farmers who are pushing the right to repair hardest in the US. The heavy equipment makers have actually added electronics and software to make it impossible to fault find and repair unless you are an approved dealer.
