Electrician // Manchester ¦ North West - Recomendations

[Spectric]

All the domestic installers I know of wouldn't know what 3 phase was, is this not outside the scope of Part P anyway, what is it they are pricing for? .

A domestic installer is just that and nothing more, they are not fully qualified electrical engineers who know the why as well as the how and would not touch three phase work. They were created to save the property developers from paying the going rate for an electrician as all they wanted was someone who could wire a new build.

And if I could... I would use the industrial contractors/contacts I have, but alas they are not certified to do domestic installations and it's around 30-40 miles away.

They can do domestic work, they have all the test equipment needed for three phase which a domestic installer will not and just need to complete and sign the paperwork. If a domestic installer cannot and also a industrial electrician cannot then who would ?

Your assuming a lot here, £7-15k for a board installation...

That is very vague for a job description, if it is just a board then that is way to much to pay but if it involves getting a cable provided by the local DNO and then wiring up a workshop for both single and three phase power along with materials then it becomes more feasable.

Never understood why, but there are not many domestic sparks who deal with 3 phase

That is because they do not encounter three phase in domestic properties, do not buy the more expensive test equipment that can handle the higher voltages and potential fault currents plus they are not qualified and would need to get trained as a full blown electrical engineer.

The biggest issue I see as I read this is that you are proposing to do a lot of the installation yourself. You imply you will be selecting and installing cables etc before the electrician installs the board. So you are taking design, selection and installation responsibilities on yourself, who I assume have no qualifications to do any of those things.

You cannot undertake any of the design or installation work which is the responsibilty of the person signing the job off. It sounds like a simple job but there is a lot more involved in order to ensure compliance with the regs and it is safe but 15K does sound steep.

Cable enters property into the DNO meter / fuses. From meter into a junction box where it feeds one phase and neutral back for the domestic supply. The protective earth will come from the MET which is from the incoming neutral as part of the PME system used in domestic. From the junction box it will feed an isolator which then feeds the workshop board. First decision is how are you going to provide the protective earth in the workshop ? Do have extraneous-conductive components in your workshop construction ? Reg 411.3.1.2 might help.

 

[deema]

I was chatting to a building buddy of mine who is a developer. He was telling me that brickies in Cheshire are now asking £2+/ brick and chippies have increased their day rate to £350. So close £80K / annum for a joiner and over £100K for a brickies. Sparkles will probably be at brickie levels.
There not a poorly played profession any more, in fact must be in the top 1% club.

 

[deema]

Just think about the charge made for a gas safety inspection, and that’s a lot easier!

 

[dgs2001]

I was chatting to a building buddy of mine who is a developer. He was telling me that brickies in Cheshire are now asking £2+/ brick and chippies have increased their day rate to £350. So close £80K / annum for a joiner and over £100K for a brickies. Sparkles will probably be at brickie levels.
There not a poorly played profession any more, in fact must be in the top 1% club.

While you may think Plumbers and Electricians would command higher wages, due to the shear lack of Plasterers, Brick layers and Carpenters available it seems these trades are currently top of the earnings potential tree.

 

[JohnerH]

Everything that Sideways says!



Question: when was it tested, and by whom?

Point: if you have done it all yourself, I'm going to need to test EVERYTHING, because I can't POSSIBLY trust that it's been done correctly.

Fair point... but again, I'm willing to pay, it's just getting the right benchmark.

They can do domestic work, they have all the test equipment needed for three phase which a domestic installer will not and just need to complete and sign the paperwork. If a domestic installer cannot and also a industrial electrician cannot then who would ?

Hence my problem, and industrial sparkies will simply not come near domestic installations unless their company and remit are aimed at both. (and have a Part P)

That is very vague for a job description,

Agree, however when I host any electricians for quotes I give them a full brief of works, what and when everything is due to happen and their involvement in the grand scheme of things.

if it is just a board then that is way to much to pay but if it involves getting a cable provided by the local DNO and then wiring up a workshop for both single and three phase power along with materials then it becomes more feasible.

Yes and no... so it will require wiring from the DNO to the meter (which will need yet another individual from my energy supplier to change meters) and then from the meter to the DB.

All the other bits I will be doing myself and then asking for another EICR to be done and yes I'll be willing to pay the price for this, the more I learn about this the more I'm getting used to the idea of the price involved in EICR's.

You cannot undertake any of the design or installation work which is the responsibilty of the person signing the job off. It sounds like a simple job but there is a lot more involved in order to ensure compliance with the regs and it is safe but 15K does sound steep.

Hmmm, actually I think you can (and should) get involved in the design. I've saved quite a lot of £££ in the past and present from suggesting alternative designs to the common ones that are proposed, whilst still adhering and sometimes upgrading proposed designs.

However, once set, it's set, no moving goals posts (worse thing you can do to everyone involved).

Design and compliance are 2 different things, I usually sketch and then specify the jobs, handing these over to either the contractor I get in for the complicated bits (DB board for instance) or to the certifying contractor that would certify the job at the end.

Cable enters property into the DNO meter / fuses. From meter into a junction box where it feeds one phase and neutral back for the domestic supply. The protective earth will come from the MET which is from the incoming neutral as part of the PME system used in domestic. From the junction box it will feed an isolator which then feeds the workshop board.

You've just described the general idea of the plan

First decision is how are you going to provide the protective earth in the workshop ? Do have extraneous-conductive components in your workshop construction ? Reg 411.3.1.2 might help.

Good question, I think this is being covered by the electrician, but thank you for the heads up. Given the machinery in there protective earth will be required.

Thank you all for the advice here.

 

[Spectric]

Given the machinery in there protective earth will be required.

You have the circuit protective conductor or CPC that is the "earth" conductor that runs to every socket / load but you also need bonding of any extranous conductive items so they cannot become live during fault conditions and is more of a problem with PME systems. Best way to visualise this is if the neutral to your property became open circuit, live now flows through any loads back to the MET and can make conductive components live unless they are bonded to ground, of course you could use a TT earthing arrangement and not export the PME system to the workshop.

 

[Sideways]

Hmmm, actually I think you can (and should) get involved in the design. I've saved quite a lot of £££ in the past and present from suggesting alternative designs to the common ones that are proposed, whilst still adhering and sometimes upgrading proposed designs.

However, once set, it's set, no moving goals posts (worse thing you can do to everyone involved).

Design and compliance are 2 different things, I usually sketch and then specify the jobs, handing these over to either the contractor I get in for the complicated bits (DB board for instance) or to the certifying contractor that would certify the job at the end

I agree with this. To be a good customer you need understanding, a clear idea of what you want to achieve and some flexibility to listen to the advice of your contractors.

It's important to appreciate that "design" includes a bunch of electrical calculations and decisions on the sizing of cables, materials to be used, standards that they have to conform to, suitability of products for their environment. You can set out your requirements but have to let the qualified person do this detailed design before you install anything. They have to sign the design off.
You don't then get free rein to install however you see fit because if you change the route of a cable, the size or type, how it's installed, etc you are invalidating the design.
The design phase is iterative. It begins with understanding the requirement, doing electrical calcs, selecting appropriate components and installation methods, then iterating the numbers and selection a time or two to be sure that all the regulations are complied with.
The testing stage at the end stands on the shoulders of the work that comes before it. It isn't a design approval and can't fix something that was wrongly designed or installed.

In an industrial commercial setting this is more obvious just because it's bigger and more complex.

Cheers

 

[JohnerH]

I agree with this. To be a good customer you need understanding, a clear idea of what you want to achieve and some flexibility to listen to the advice of your contractors.

It's important to appreciate that "design" includes a bunch of electrical calculations and decisions on the sizing of cables, materials to be used, standards that they have to conform to, suitability of products for their environment. You can set out your requirements but have to let the qualified person do this detailed design before you install anything. They have to sign the design off.
You don't then get free rein to install however you see fit because if you change the route of a cable, the size or type, how it's installed, etc you are invalidating the design.
The design phase is iterative. It begins with understanding the requirement, doing electrical calcs, selecting appropriate components and installation methods, then iterating the numbers and selection a time or two to be sure that all the regulations are complied with.
The testing stage at the end stands on the shoulders of the work that comes before it. It isn't a design approval and can't fix something that was wrongly designed or installed.

In an industrial commercial setting this is more obvious just because it's bigger and more complex.

Cheers

Agreed...

 

[highwood122]

ENWL is coming in to feed a 3-phase cable directly from the grid,

After that meter is changed by my supplier,

The electrician would then install a board feeding in all the different wiring ends (which I will be installing myself) from the garage which will contain the all machinery, they would then also hook a wire (which I will be providing) for a single phase to the main house and single phase board.

Nothing all too complicated from a glance point of view,

One of the chaps I had in, wants to charge me £420 for a single EICR.

what happened to JIB rates

 

[JohnerH]

Quick update on here,

Finally got a contact/electrician that looks like the part,

For ref.:

Fusion Electrical NW

 

[Spectric]

Let us know how you get on and any outcome.