Electrical testing for lighting products

[Rufus]

Regulation isn't friendly to small business, but it can be argued that small businesses in many cases will have less time, resource and expertise than a larger manufacturer, and those limitations make them more likely to overlook a risk to their customers....

It does make me wonder what a lot of the Etsy style traders do... I suspect I know the answer!

 

[Sandyn]

It does make me wonder what a lot of the Etsy style traders do... I suspect I know the answer!

Sometimes it's genuine ignorance of the requirements . Homes have ELCB's now, so it's more difficult to get killed by faulty appliances, If there were lots of deaths it would be seen as a problem. Even all the uncertified junk from Asia is built to a reasonable standard.
What is really unfair is that CE compliance is a legal requirement, but the standards are not free. They cost a fortune and one product for example may reference 10 standards. That could be several thousand pounds. That's a lot of money for a small business, before they do anything.

 

[Sandyn]

It sounds like a technical file would be very useful if things went wrong.

The idea of a technical file is check you are manufacturing to the Standards and hopefully nothing will go wrong. Sometimes, you have to be prepared to compromise your artistic flair where parts you use look great, but don't meet the requirements.

 

[DavidConnelly]

I have done a technical file for a lamp before.

Could you post an example please. I couldn't see one online

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Hi

You may not remember or they may have influenced you but back in the seventies there was a time when a lot of people had these orange tubular lamps but on straight legs and your last two remind me of those, nice so see retro styles.

We made them from GRP in the late '60s at school. Glass fibre wound around a former made from a length of soil pipe. Invariably orange.

 

[MikeJhn]

Sometimes it's genuine ignorance of the requirements . Homes have ELCB's now, so it's more difficult to get killed by faulty appliances, If there were lots of deaths it would be seen as a problem. Even all the uncertified junk from Asia is built to a reasonable standard.
What is really unfair is that CE compliance is a legal requirement, but the standards are not free. They cost a fortune and one product for example may reference 10 standards. That could be several thousand pounds. That's a lot of money for a small business, before they do anything.

Difference between ELCB and RCCB

ELCB is the old name and often refers to voltage operated devices that are no longer available and it is advised you replace them if you find one. RCCB or RCD is the new name that specifies current operated (hence the new name to distinguish from voltage operated).

Now days I only advice the fitting of dual pole RCBO's on each circuit in preference to MCB's protected by an RCD.

 

[Spectric]

And lets mention the best protective device to use which is the RCBO, this provides both residual current protection and fault current protection on a circuit by circuit basis, ie you don't lose half the circuits on one side of the board when a RCD drops out.

 

[MikeJhn]

I think you mean "Residual current protection and overload protection".

 

[cmoops2]

I've just dropped onto this thread and I'm a bit surprised at the lack of knowledge regarding the UK requirements for products 'manufactured' for sale to the public.

Accepting the fact that we're the other side of BREXIT, a product manufactured for sale in the UK market now need to be UKCA marked (and also CE marked if intended to be sold in EU countries). If an individual 'manufactures' a product from a series of UKCA/CE marked components, that doesn't obviate the need for the 'designer/manufacturer' to UKCA (and/or CE) mark the item and issue an appropriate Declaration of Conformity (DofC).

On the subject of insurance, the need for PL (public liability) is a given. Anybody involved in 'design' should seriosly consider PI (professional indemnity) cover. Yes, it's bl**dy expensive but so is a lawsuit for injury / death of a customer who has been electrocuted by a light fitting cobbled together by a keen amateur and sold to an unsuspecting public.

Owning copies of the relevant standards is also bl**dy expensive but is a good defence at the coroner's court (as opposed to arguing that the 'processes' employed in the manufacture of say the 'designer' light fitting "exceeded or exceeded that defined by the applicable standards) ...

Please don't take this post as a means to stifle enthusiasm - take it as a message to think REALLY hard before you decide to 'manufacture' and market a product whose elements/construction have the potential to injure/kill and unsuspecting customer ...

 

[TheTiddles]

A look at the date of the posts is relevant to the CE vs UKCA marking requirements

 

[Dabop]

One approach I have seen used in Australia for 'home made lamps' is to have an approved transformer/power supply unit, and run the lamp at ELV (5v or 12v- here it is anything under 60vDC), that way your PSU is handling the LV side of things, and the requirements (at least in Australia) are very easy to satisfy by doing it this way...
I've seen this used in both 'portable' lamps and fixed ones (ie a licenced sparkie fits a unswitched 3 pin socket in the roof cavity (no DIY allowed at all in Oz) as is done for vent fans, some downlights etc and the lamp plugged into it for fixed fittings (obviously 'portable' lamps like floor standing and table lamps just plug the PSU into a powerpoint as usual)

This allows custom LED designs rather than 'bulbs', but should you want a 'traditional bulb' there are ES and BC 12-85v DC/AC bulbs readily available that look like normal incandescent bulbs (sorta- they are the LED 'filament' type) or normal 'LED' bulbs (I have both here running directly from my battery bank rather than using the inverter as I live offgrid)

(though I would add a warning label to the lamp socket if I did so, saying they aren't a mains voltage and standard bulbs won't work)

 

[Spectric]

I think you mean "Residual current protection and overload protection".

The terms used is normally residual and over current, the over current part is supposed to include overload but it is something that can be questionable and I think the rerms get mixed up. If you are using motors then you must have some form of overload protection due to the nature of a motor but I have seen cases where motors without the overload feature have not caused an RCBO to trip so where was the overload feature. The interesting thing is that a type B RCBO is designed to trip at 3 to 5 times rated current, if the device can trip on overload then the only way it can perform this must be some form of integration over time, ie short circuit is large current in a short period of time and an overload is an excessive period of current flow for a longer duration. I will have to look at this as it is another one of those murky areas open to some ambiguity like the regs.

 

[MikeJhn]

Would make an interesting discussion point on an electrical Forum, but for a Woodworking Forum I think we should stick to the conventional understanding :
R=Residue, C=Current, B=Breaker with O=Over-Current protection.

 

[Dabop]

The interesting thing is that a type B RCBO is designed to trip at 3 to 5 times rated current, if the device can trip on overload then the only way it can perform this must be some form of integration over time, ie short circuit is large current in a short period of time and an overload is an excessive period of current flow for a longer duration. I will have to look at this as it is another one of those murky areas open to some ambiguity like the regs.

Interesting, most fuseboxes installed in the last decade or two in Australia use C curve breakers, rather than B curve...

Lights and power or 'combined light/power' like the garage all C curve breakers (10A for lighting, 20A for power or combined)
(thats the fusebox from where I used to live (rewired in 2016) from the previous 1960's vintage ceramic fuses)

 

[Spectric]

Is there any reason why they fit C type breakers, for most domestic loads the inrush current is not high so a B curve is fine. Fitting a C type requires lower loop impedances to achieve a fault current capable of causing it to trip. IE, a type B will trip at 3 to 5 times rating whereas the type C is 5 to 10 times rating so for a 32 amp device, type B needs 160 amps and the type C needs 320 amps and this can mean using larger CSA cables. Is it anything to do with the supply to the property in Aus ?

 

[Dabop]

The interesting thing is that a type B RCBO is designed to trip at 3 to 5 times rated current, if the device can trip on overload then the only way it can perform this must be some form of integration over time, ie short circuit is large current in a short period of time and an overload is an excessive period of current flow for a longer duration. I will have to look at this as it is another one of those murky areas open to some ambiguity like the regs.

Interesting, most fuseboxes installed in the last decade or two in Australia use C curve breakers, rather than B curve...
View attachment 160341
Lights and power or 'combined light/power' like the garage all C curve breakers (10A for lighting, 20A for power or combined)
(thats the fusebox from where I used to live (rewired in 2016) from the previous 1960's vintage ceramic fuses)

Is there any reason why they fit C type breakers, for most domestic loads the inrush current is not high so a B curve is fine. Fitting a C type requires lower loop impedances to achieve a fault current capable of causing it to trip. IE, a type B will trip at 3 to 5 times rating whereas the type C is 5 to 10 times rating so for a 32 amp device, type B needs 160 amps and the type C needs 320 amps and this can mean using larger CSA cables. Is it anything to do with the supply to the property in Aus ?

To tell the truth, I am not sure why, it used to be B curves, but this seems to have changed about a decade or so ago...
I checked with several friends who are renting newer built places, and they all have C rated RCB's fitted
Still using 1.5mm on lighting circuits and 2.5mm on power circuits (unless on long runs)
Yet the older places definitely used B curve ones
(my mums place- new fuse box when upgraded from single phase to 3 phase circa 1995- old style MCB with only one RCD fitted for power and lights)