Electric vehicles

[johnb80]

Assuming they are able to do that. My understanding is that this option is dependent on a lot of external factors.

Not really, midnight to 06:00, 5p kWh every night which equates nicely to 1p per mile fuel cost. I'll take that thank you.

 

[johnb80]

WhatCar review.
View attachment 188850
Also the review pointed out that 'Just bear in mind that, like all electric models, the MG5 is unlikely to achieve that quoted figure in real-world driving conditions (expect more like 200 miles from a full charge of the battery).

In reality it does around 235 miles on a full charge dependent on speed more than anything else. It's no different to ICE cars which are quoted MPG figures which they never achieve.

 

[AJB Temple]

^^ Indeed. The absolute maximum range that the dash shows on my current Tesla X (100 whatevers battery version) is 320 on a full charge. This is fiction. However, if I drive in a measured way, I have achieved 280 on mainly motorway roads, using cruise control and auto drive (gimmick) to Europe. Which we do often. We do a quick top up and coffee break in Brugge. That is OK. On the other hand if we went in an Audi Q7 diesel, we could do it with no stops at higher speeds and still have significant range left.

 

[Agent_zed]

I suspect Aptera would not be legal in the EU. The axle and suspension struts are in a gap to the wheel pods and would be a deathtrap for pedestrians. Personally I would not even consider a three wheeler either, unless it was very low speed.

Not sure about mainland Europe but nothing to stop that design in the UK. I built a lotus 7 replica and it has open wheels, the same as a Caterham 7. Aerial Atoms and numerous other similar cars also have open wheel gaps.

The Coefficient of drag on a Caterham is about 0.7 though! it's slightly better than a brick!

 

[johnb80]

^^ Indeed. The absolute maximum range that the dash shows on my current Tesla X (100 whatevers battery version) is 320 on a full charge. This is fiction. However, if I drive in a measured way, I have achieved 280 on mainly motorway roads, using cruise control and auto drive (gimmick) to Europe. Which we do often. We do a quick top up and coffee break in Brugge. That is OK. On the other hand if we went in an Audi Q7 diesel, we could do it with no stops at higher speeds and still have significant range left.

Yes of course BUT the Q7 wouldnt have achieved the MPG figure in the specification sheet which is the argument here.

 

[AJB Temple]

......If you are driving a V8 diesel or V12 petrol, then mpg is not at the forefront of your mind. I used to live in Switzerland and regularly did Zurich to London and vice versa in a Q7 on a single tank, not hanging about. Diesel is still unbeatable for real long haul driving.

 

[Jester129]

Did anyone else notice the dearth of superchargers on that map around the Leicester area? Oh err!

 

[selectortone]

we were at Pembrey track last weekend and among other cars on show was the new MG sports car. We agreed that it looks fantastic, and with specs like those, it's hard to imagine when you'd need more power.

https://www.mgcyberster.co.uk/

I saw one of those in Bournemouth a while ago. Beautiful car. Bit pricey though!

 

[selectortone]

My daughter is one of those with an EV (company car) and no off street parking. She lives in a flat on the main road through a suburb of Bournemouth. Fortunately I am less than a mile away and have ample off street parking so we had a charger installed and she charges from here. She regularly travels long distances in it, including into the wilds of rural Wales, but she absolutely loves the car and would never go back to ICE.

She's found that route planning is the key and rarely gets into range anxiety situations. She's happy to have a half hour break with a coffee and her laptop. In fact she she gets more work done on the road that way, rather than having to do it when she gets home.

So, one happy bunny at least.

I am actually the perfect customer for an EV: I rarely do more than 100 miles a week and always park at home. And on the rare occasions I go long distance I use my MX-5, much more fun than my boring Mazda3. They're just too expensive at the moment. But when the 3 needs changing, in 3-4 years, an EV is in my sights.

 

[Lons]

Not really, midnight to 06:00, 5p kWh every night which equates nicely to 1p per mile fuel cost. I'll take that thank you.

So which car are you talking about?

I've just pulled the stats off the MG website for the MG5 EV Estate that you highlighted and it's much longer than 6 hours to charge from 10 to 100%. In fact 10 hours at 7kw and of note is that is at a temperature of 25c

https://www.mg.co.uk/new-cars/mg5-ev

 

[selectortone]

I am actually the perfect customer for an EV: I rarely do more than 100 miles a week and always park at home.

Quoting myself: I just heard on the radio that EDF are offering a tariff with free electricity on Sundays. For the mileage I do, that would mean free charging.

 

[Dabop]

Did anyone else notice the dearth of superchargers on that map around the Leicester area? Oh err!

Tesla aren't the only ones making fast chargers, and it isn't as if there is a total lack of chargers in the area...

As they don't have a scale on their maps (rather dumb lol)- here's a google maps shot of the same area for those unaware of the distances involved... with a distance scale top left...

So within a circle measuring approximately 5km across contains 5 ultrarapid 150kw + chargers, 10 rapid (50kw-150kw) chargers, 5 fast (8-50kw) chargers, and too many to count without expanding the map further slow chargers...
I prefer Plugshare, here's their map...

https://www.plugshare.com/
To see for yourself just how many are in an area, go there and type in the town name you want... (if you hover over the marker, it gives you its details- orange is a 'fast charger', green is a 'slower' charger

 

[johnb80]

So which car are you talking about?

Both, MG5 and BMW i3

I've just pulled the stats off the MG website for the MG5 EV Estate that you highlighted and it's much longer than 6 hours to charge from 10 to 100%. In fact 10 hours at 7kw and of note is that is at a temperature of 25c

https://www.mg.co.uk/new-cars/mg5-ev

That is true but you don't normally charge from empty to full every night. I only need to replace the amount of energy I use in a day. at 7.2 kW I can replace 216 miles during the 6 hours overnight, if I really wanted the full range I could start the charge earlier at 13.37p kWh giving me 1.8p per mile.

 

[Spectric]

is that the battery is a low slung slab at chassis level.

That is what I said,

keep there mass as low as possible for better handling

It would not be difficult to just have motors built into the hubs, especially in the rear unsteered wheels and with a 4x4 configuration under electronic control then traction could be maintained without the risk of skidding, no need for diffs in axles or between front & rear so the potential is there once battery technology gets there.

 

[Dabop]

That is what I said,

It would not be difficult to just have motors built into the hubs, especially in the rear unsteered wheels and with a 4x4 configuration under electronic control then traction could be maintained without the risk of skidding, no need for diffs in axles or between front & rear so the potential is there once battery technology gets there.

AWD is already quite common in EV's (hub motors on the other hand aren't really that desirable- they already exist, but using them means more unsprung weight on the tyres- which reduces handling, and increases tyre wear...)
This is a list of some of the existing vehicles available here in Australia with AWD

(theres a couple of 4wd versions ie utes) coming very soon- either hybrids or full electrics)
BYD already has their prototype 'ute' (expected to be on sale later this year as a hybrid, and the full EV version in late 2025) was seen driving around Melbourne late last year- expected cost 'under $100k'- which isn't that bad considering its an actual 4wd, plus the cost of a new TDI Hilux is usually up around the$75-80k mark for the usual 'family' crewcab ute...

https://www.drive.com.au/news/byd-ute-prototype-arrives/

Many may scoff at 'some Chinese mob making a ute'- but BYD is actually a well established company, making EV cars since 2009, and trucks and buses since 2012 (we have been using BYD buses in Sydney since 2016!!!) and have outsold Tesla in Australia...

I suspect making a ute won't prove particularly challenging for them lol

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Not sure about mainland Europe but nothing to stop that design in the UK. I built a lotus 7 replica and it has open wheels, the same as a Caterham 7. Aerial Atoms and numerous other similar cars also have open wheel gaps.

The Coefficient of drag on a Caterham is about 0.7 though! it's slightly better than a brick!

Total aerodynamic resistance is (AIUI) drag coefficient x frontal area.

Despite the brick comparison, it probably takes less power to make progress in a Caterham, Westfield etc than the average modern supermini with hours of wind tunnel testing and computer modelling.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

In reality it does around 235 miles on a full charge dependent on speed more than anything else. It's no different to ICE cars which are quoted MPG figures which they never achieve.

ICE cars currently have around double the range of a typical mid range EV - say 500 vs 250 miles.

Recharging is 5 minutes vs +/- an hour at a fast charge. Further issues:

• the cautious tend to refuel whilst there is some range left in the tank/battery - not run it down to the fuel warning light or 10% charge.
• as petrol tends have better availability than fast chargers, the residual capacity required before range anxiety sets in may be greater for electricity
• whilst both fuels are subject to efficiency losses with low temperatures, this is usually more pronounced with EVs.

Putting some numbers to this - assuming 100% full at the start of a journey with fill up required when remaining range falls to 50 miles:

• an ICE with 500 miles total range has an effective range of 450 miles. In winter ~zero UK temperatures could reduce range by ~10% giving an effective range of 400 miles.
• an EV with 250 miles total range has an effective range of 200 miles. In winter ~zero UK temperatures could reduce range by ~30% giving an effective 125 miles.

I have no problems with EV and believe they will be the future. But there is far too much rose tinted selective arguments from both sides of the debate

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Tesla aren't the only ones making fast chargers, and it isn't as if there is a total lack of chargers in the area...
View attachment 188876
As they don't have a scale on their maps (rather dumb lol)- here's a google maps shot of the same area for those unaware of the distances involved... with a distance scale top left...
View attachment 188877
So within a circle measuring approximately 5km across contains 5 ultrarapid 150kw + chargers, 10 rapid (50kw-150kw) chargers, 5 fast (8-50kw) chargers, and too many to count without expanding the map further slow chargers...
I prefer Plugshare, here's their map...
View attachment 188879
https://www.plugshare.com/
To see for yourself just how many are in an area, go there and type in the town name you want... (if you hover over the marker, it gives you its details- orange is a 'fast charger', green is a 'slower' charger

There are probably more chargers than conventional garages in the area - but:

• the average forecourt may have 6-12 pumps
• each pump is occupied by a car being filled for ~5 minutes
• not all chargers are fast chargers
• each charger is occupied for (say) 15-120 minutes depending on charge rate and kwh needed

Balancing this is that much EV refuelling will be at home and have no need of a publicly available charger - few homes have their own petrol or diesel supply!

 

[johnb80]

ICE cars currently have around double the range of a typical mid range EV - say 500 vs 250 miles.

No argument with that at all.

Recharging is 5 minutes vs +/- an hour at a fast charge.

This is simply not the case, most EV's get to 80% in a maximum of 40 minutes and thats where you stop charge and journey continues.

Further issues:

• the cautious tend to refuel whilst there is some range left in the tank/battery - not run it down to the fuel warning light or 10% charge.

Not sure of the point youre making here

• as petrol tends have better availability than fast chargers, the residual capacity required before range anxiety sets in may be greater for electricity

I think you mean rapid chargers, fast chargers are the 7 kW units that people have at home I would guess better availability of fast chargers compared to petrol pumps but fewer rapid chargers than petrol pumps.

• whilst both fuels are subject to efficiency losses with low temperatures, this is usually more pronounced with EVs.

I suspect that if a petrol car was used for a 3 mile journey in winter conditions the downgrade of range would be similar. An EV can have heated the battery up and the car interior, defrosted the windows etc all before you start to use the battery range.

Putting some numbers to this - assuming 100% full at the start of a journey with fill up required when remaining range falls to 50 miles:

• an ICE with 500 miles total range has an effective range of 450 miles. In winter ~zero UK temperatures could reduce range by ~10% giving an effective range of 400 miles.
• an EV with 250 miles total range has an effective range of 200 miles. In winter ~zero UK temperatures could reduce range by ~30% giving an effective 125 miles.

It's nothing like 30% on either of my EV's. My i3 drops from 145 in the summer to 120 in the coldest of days. The MG5 from 255 miles in the summer to 225 in winter.

I have no problems with EV and believe they will be the future. But there is far too much rose tinted selective arguments from both sides of the debate

And an amazing amout of data protrayed by people that really dont know. I have been a petrolhead all of my life until 8 years ago when I was converted to EV. I had some very nice ICE vehicles in the past but experiencing all aspects of EV's I would not go back. Not for environmental reasons purely the way an EV drives, the smoothness, the performance and the incredibly low running costs.

 

[Agent_zed]

the cautious tend to refuel whilst there is some range left in the tank/battery - not run it down to the fuel warning light or 10% charge.

With my diesel I tend to only half fill the tank generally. As I do mostly short trips it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to carry 25-30kg of extra fuel with me everywhere i go, when half a tank will get me well over 250miles.

I only brim the tank when I've got a very long journey to make, and even then It would probably make more sense to re-fuel on the way.

I guess if i had an EV i would have to change my habits and try and keep the battery topped up, as it makes no difference in weight and is seemingly better for the battery.