Electric vehicles

[Spectric]

Adding a genuinely fast charger for EV (much more than 7KW) simply can't fit within typical domestic supply constraints without risking occasional main supply fuse failure.. Significant costly upgrade required.

If you look at the fast chargers like the 22Kw Siemens it requires a 32 amp three phase supply and cost about two grand and unless you want to wait for many hours for you car to charge you will want something like this. I have heard there may be government grants available so may not be as bad as it first looks.

 

[Rorschach]

government grants available.

Once again, the poor subsidising the pleasures of the rich it seems

 

[D_W]

Thanks. That is an interesting article, despite a lack of hard data. It seems that the author's goals are not the same as mine though. For example, he writes:

(My emphasis)

This suggests that he needs to stop at multiple chargers in order to do 600 km in one day. My aim is different. A regular trip is 300 km each way. Currently in a conventional car I make sure the tank is full the day before so the car can get there and back without stopping. Ideally I would want an electric car to drive the 300 km there without a stop, recharge at the destination, then get home again without a stop. In summer this seems possible but in winter I have my doubts. So a stop to recharge seems inevitable in each direction. If each stop takes an hour that adds 2 hours to an already long day; enough to discard the idea of an electric vehicle.

if you were making a continuous trip in a tesla, i doubt the mileage in the winter would change much. The thermal management of the battery is happening over a shorter period of time. If you're making the trip over 7 days, then you'd have an issue where the car would be conditioning the battery with supplemental heat most of the time and driving little.

Different issue than cars like the leaf, which have no such management and will just run with the battery at a temperature where it performs poorly.

I asked BIL (who has a tesla 3) if the car is a pig in the winter and he said that it's worse in his case (may be different in england where it's cooler) if it's left outside in the summer sun and the car wastes energy to keep the battery cool all day.

BIL makes a 90 mile (145km) round trip to and from work each day and plugs his car in at night. He is averaging below .3 kw per mile despite most of the trip being on the highway, and that includes his thermal management expenditures. He has an open garage stall, though, so the bulk of the hours, his car is comfortably in a garage only accounting for a fraction of regulating the environmental conditions.

 

[D_W]

Once again, the poor subsidising the pleasures of the rich it seems

Generally, a subsidy like this is to get market exposure for something so that the price comes down to an affordable range.

In the last 10 or 12 years, the price of battery capacity has declined by about 85-90% (i remember when the first teslas came out here in the states, the financial disclosure from tesla put the cost of the battery above the selling price of the car). The battery in an extended model 3 is probably about $10k US now.

I'm not normally a fan of the government incentivizing high cost items (they usually just stay high cost), but this appears to be a case where it's paid off in battery technology - the volume is there now. There's also not much incentive in the US for tesla's 3 now, at least at the federal level, and gas is CHEAP here, about $2.25 a gallon, but the 3s are still selling hand over fist and attracting more players.

There's not a clear reason not to incentivize here (we had fits of stupidity about 10 years ago with the government deciding to subsidize solar panel making, as if you'd convince buyers to pay significantly more for panels when China had gotten past us in terms of technical advances. That was a prior administration's viewpoint, though. We'll just throw money at it and it'll somehow get better. I guess making a reliable car overseas is a taller order than making superior solar panels (when the cost/benefit for panels is so clear cut, i'm not sure why we wouldn't want to use the least expensive panels we could find, anyway).

I ride public trans, and use a gas car - no dog in the fight. I don't mind subsidizing tesla's cars as we certainly subsidized oil and continue to do it, and we do something many times dumber here - we use half of the corn crop to make motor fuel and then subsidize farmers to grow it (when we don't otherwise need it). and then give them preferential treatment on appreciated land value as if it's somehow not worth real money.

 

[Geoff_S]

Have you tried the SpeakEV forum?

 

[beech1948]

Musicman,

I thought I would bring a little amusement into your life. My wife has bought herself a Nissan Leaf; gave me a lecture on "green things" and has told me to get a home charger ordered..asap. Thank god delivery is some time in the New Year.

I'm still laughing at the irony of it all.

Al

I love mine too though only got it just before the start of lockdown so haven't driven it very much as yet.

I do think you are paying too much for electricity though. My rate from Octopus is more like £0.15 an hour, and once I get the smart meter and go on their Agile tariff, it will be £0.05 - £0.075 per hour except between 4.30 and 7 pm when it goes up to about £0.035.

 

[NormanB]

Snipped.
The other issue is regenerative braking to put energy back into the batteries when slowing down or going down hill. Many (most?) electric cars have an adjustable version of this but I don't understand why. I would have thought you would always want the maximum energy recovery possible. What advantage is there to having little or none?

Basically to suit driving style, topography and traffic conditions. It allows the user to choose aggressive/ less aggressive ‘braking’ performance - the more regen the harsher the deceleration.

 

[Ollie78]

I really like the look of those Arrival vans. The fact that they are made of composite self coloured panels is great and they just look cool. The Rivian and cybertruck are pretty cool as well.
I think the market will grow incredibly fast as the charging network grows. I won't be able to afford anything until second or third hand.
I still don't know the solution for charging in terraced streets where you can't even park near your own house most of the time and there will be trailing wires everywhere.
The Alfa guilia is one of the most beautiful cars ever made, it is just right from any angle.

Ollie

 

[Just4Fun]

... the more regen the harsher the deceleration.

If you barely ease the throttle do you get mild deceleration even with maximum regen selected?

 

[Bodone]

Had the golf nearly a year, not a lot of miles on it due to COVID. In summer, its garaged, range on clock was 147, if I look now, it’s 109 or 110. We don’t have the preconditioner fitted, its in a brick garage so temps probably a couple of degrees above ambient. This is northish of UK, so more damp than cold.

Regen braking works fine and I think 3 levels on the golf. You can use it to make driving more interesting if you’re that way inclined or just leave it on standard.

As I’ve said, we like it, fits our purpose and build quality is very good and looks like any other golf. Other half had option of golf or tesla, she went with this and apart from the odd moments of range anxiety, she loves it. One of her favourite things is not going to the garage, a pet hate of hers.

Tried everything available at time and I was hoping she’d go Tesla, unfortunately not her thing and annoyingly build quality still naff which she picked up on.

Still very expensive for a golf, but sort of breaks even over the time we’ll have it compared to previous car.

As a youth, did a lot of cold weather testing Canada, Sweden, found out what it was like to be really cold. My range anxiety would be through the roof in some of those places on long journeys In an EV.

 

[pe2dave]

Recent survey showed some caution.

 

[John Brough]

Electric vehicles have improved to the point that I am considering buying one when I next change my car, possibly next summer. With that in mind I have been doing some research on the 'net and there are some things I cannot find information about.

The first, and most serious for me, is how much range drops in winter due to lower battery performance plus using heaters, demisters, seat heaters etc. Tests described as "harsh winter conditions" seem to be in -5C or so. I need to cope with -20C or -30C. Stopping more often to recharge in these conditions is not an attractive proposition so I hope range doesn't drop too much, but I am not optimistic.

Also connected with winter conditions is the lack of a park option. In a normal manual gearbox car I park it in gear. With an automatice gearbox I park it in park (duh). Some electric vehicles only have forward, reverse and neutral. Does this mean you have to park with the handbrake on? If I do that it might freeze on.

The other issue is regenerative braking to put energy back into the batteries when slowing down or going down hill. Many (most?) electric cars have an adjustable version of this but I don't understand why. I would have thought you would always want the maximum energy recovery possible. What advantage is there to having little or none?

Hi There. We have had an electric golf for a year in temperate south of England - so can't comment on severe cold. In summer we get about 145 -155 miles but realistically that is only about 115 as you have to plan for a charging point and maybe plan for finding it not working or fully occupied. In winter I reckon the top figure goes down to 115 and we have the Heat Pump option. So it sounds bad - BUT we love it and have realised that we probably only do 100 mile plus drives 10 or so times a year - so just accept planning some stops on those trips. It's very like planning a sailing passage and dealing with tides and dangerous headlands! It is easier with a passenger in the car who can read the up to the moment situation at charging points and change plans in advance if there are issues. Download Zapmap on your phone and play with it - will give you a good idea about charging on your routes. It's free.

We use maximum regenerative braking all the time - towns and motorways - and find it completely normal and of no concern whatsoever - a bit odd the first few days. In fact driving a hire car without it reecently I found it disconcerting how it did not seem to slow down when taking foot of the accelerator! But in icy conditions I think you would avoid it or certainly use a lower setting. The one thing most people never realise until owning one is how smooth they are to drive and how smooth the power comes in. We'd love one that could do 300 miles but then I'd love a band saw that could resaw 16" logs. Good luck with your decision.

 

[NikNak]

Once again, the poor subsidising the pleasures of the rich it seems

I certainly wouldn't class myself as rich in any sense of the word.

Generally, a subsidy like this is to get market exposure for something so that the price comes down to an affordable range.

I do wonder if the so called subsidies are just a means of keeping the price of ev's (or anything that attracts a subsidy) artificially high, i.e. take away the subsidy, sales drop, car manufacturers reduce price of cars by the subsidy amount.? I'm no economist but that's my take on it.

I worked in the wind turbine industry way back when it was just some crackpot engineers idea of creating renewables. And look at it now.... we're all benefitting from it. And when i say 'all' that includes the planet..... and believe me you wouldn't believe the eye watering 'subsidies' we were getting way back then to try new ideas and development methods.

Having said all that.... i've got the keys to a spanking new Kia Niro4+ demonstrator to try for the day (my 5yr old Sportage is in for a warranty jobby... just the drivers door mirror, but hey they said they'll put a new one on) so i'll let you know how i get on later

 

[Rorschach]

I certainly wouldn't class myself as rich in any sense of the word.

Why would you think this was aimed at you?

 

[Ditch 08]

With all the points raised and answered, I have yet to hear the the answer to the one question regarding EV cars that I have. This being what is the view with regards social etiquette, if you plug in your vehicle at the home of the person you visit? Should invites be sent out stating that you can or can not plug in, then if you do should you be expected to pay.
You may believe this a silly point, but if you are visiting and you need to recharge, what do you do? Stop at a recharge point prior to visiting or afterwards or spend that hour with your friends/family.

 

[PhilTilson]

Just a quick note about regenerative braking. There are two main aspects to adjusting the level of this. The first is personal; you may find full regeneration a bit too fierce for your driving style, especially at lower speeds. Personally, I find I quickly adjusted my driving style and find the facility excellent. It also means that you can probably keep the car for many years without having to replace brake pads or discs! The level of braking is normally adjustable, which means you can reduce or remove it in icy conditions.

The second is technical. If the battery is at nearly full charge, regenerative braking is reduced, because you can't risk overcharging the battery. If the battery is very cold (or very hot) it can absorb less power so regenerative braking is reduced. Once again, after a relatively short time, you get used to this and it ceases to be a problem.

I have had my Tesla for nearly four months now and I really can't imagine ever going back to a conventional vehicle. I actually look forward to going out in the car and with its Autopilot facility (and this is not full self-drive) my trip around the M25 a few weeks ago was (and I never thought to hear myself say this) almost enjoyable! You may be pushing it a bit for 300Km in -20°C - though the latest Teslas would probably cope admirably - but the number of people I have come across who have driven EVs for any reasonable period that would wish to return to an ICE vehicle are, I suggest, miniscule. Good luck!

 

[Lons]

With all the points raised and answered, I have yet to hear the the answer to the one question regarding EV cars that I have. This being what is the view with regards social etiquette, if you plug in your vehicle at the home of the person you visit? Should invites be sent out stating that you can or can not plug in, then if you do should you be expected to pay.
You may believe this a silly point, but if you are visiting and you need to recharge, what do you do? Stop at a recharge point prior to visiting or afterwards or spend that hour with your friends/family.

It's like going back to when people had land lines and no phone call package so if you needed to use their 'phone you would leave some coins for the call.

If you had a petrol car you wouldn't presumably be begging them a can of petrol. I wouldn't ask for a contribution..... until the cost of charging BEVs goes up dramatically as is likely when the financial black hole opens up after the loss of tax on fuel takes effect. Might need a rethink and a lock on the charging point then.

 

[Rorschach]

With all the points raised and answered, I have yet to hear the the answer to the one question regarding EV cars that I have. This being what is the view with regards social etiquette, if you plug in your vehicle at the home of the person you visit? Should invites be sent out stating that you can or can not plug in, then if you do should you be expected to pay.
You may believe this a silly point, but if you are visiting and you need to recharge, what do you do? Stop at a recharge point prior to visiting or afterwards or spend that hour with your friends/family.

Depends how far you are going to visit really, if you are going 20 miles up the road it would seem rather rude to expect a recharge. If you are travelling halfway across the country though I would assume your family/friend would expect you to need to recharge. Of course that assume your family has the facilities for you to charge your car.

Whether you pay is a personal thing, do you pay for the cup of tea and biscuit they give you?

 

[Spectric]

Whether you pay is a personal thing, do you pay for the cup of tea and biscuit they give you?

I think it may cost a bit more than just tea and biscuits, what if they are visiting as a salesperson and they need an overnight stay in order to recharge?

 

[Ditch 08]

Depends how far you are going to visit really, if you are going 20 miles up the road it would seem rather rude to expect a recharge. If you are travelling halfway across the country though I would assume your family/friend would expect you to need to recharge. Of course that assume your family has the facilities for you to charge your car.

Whether you pay is a personal thing, do you pay for the cup of tea and biscuit they give you?

Yes I agree with your reply and if you had the capacity that would get you home, no problems. But I was trying to ask what the position was with regards "Social Etiquette" was, The same as holding a door open for someone etc.
It also is the same as your example with tea and biscuits, you would instinctually not pay if you were at that persons home, but if you were having a Sunday Roast and before lunch you went to a pub, as the guest you would offer to pay the first round as that is the Social Etiquette that I was dragged up by.