Farmer Giles
The biggest tool in the box
On our 3rd Leaf, brilliant cars. Looking at swapping the 14 year old disco for a plug in hybrid in couple of years as most trips are less than 20 miles.
Electric vehicles
- Thread starter Woodchips2
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Woody2Shoes":xqzzd0yx said:
Yes of course, but that involves a lot more planning for any trip. I can jump in my car right now and drive indefinitely without ever worrying about running out of fuel or where I am going to get it.
It's not just the range and finding a charge point that's the problem though, its the time to charge. Refilling my car takes about 5 minutes to give me 400 or so miles of range. Are there any electric cars that can do this? Best I have heard so far is 1 hour charge for 200miles range and that is not a common feature at all. Even in that best case scenario your journey times are increased by approx 30% due to charging. In a petrol/diesel vehicle your journey times are increased by a matter of minutes if you need to refuel, it takes me longer to pee than it takes to refuel.
Steve Maskery
Established Member
Rorschach":221hb45s said:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
lurker
Le dullard de la commune
My BiL has a leccy jaguar, apparently they are very tax efficient if you own a business!
He went to Cornwall (300miles), stopped to top up, “not a problem just 30 mins whilst having a cup of coffee.”
Thing is, he had to wait a further 20 minutes in the queue for a charger.
How many minutes does it take to put in 450 miles worth of diesel?
How many chargers do you need to replace a forecourt of pumps?
He went to Cornwall (300miles), stopped to top up, “not a problem just 30 mins whilst having a cup of coffee.”
Thing is, he had to wait a further 20 minutes in the queue for a charger.
How many minutes does it take to put in 450 miles worth of diesel?
How many chargers do you need to replace a forecourt of pumps?
Yojevol
Clocking on
Trainee neophyte":1p8w279j said:
I think your calc needs an extra factor in it.
I agree up to 471billion KWh/year. Lets turn that into MW because that's how we measure power station output. So 471 x 10⁶MW.h/year. Converting this to generating capacity we must divide it by 365 x 24 hours/year which gives 54000MW. Our present generation of PWR power stations are rated at 1200MW. This means we need 45 new power stations or their equivalent. To that we've got to add on replacement of all existing fossil and nuclear capacity over the next 30 years. It's not impossible, but it's a very big ask.
This takes me back to my early days (1976) in the power station construction industry when I was studying this exact subject. We were contemplating PS construction rates of about 2 per year. As time went on the envisaged max capacity ebbed away to today's rate which is probably something like one every 5 years
So it's very difficult to forecast future needs because we just cannot see how society and the world is going to change. All we know is that something big is going to happen. Personally, I think we have missed the boat on being able to influence global warming. We've just got to try and ameliorate it as best we can and live (or die) with the consequences.
There's a happy thought.
Brian
Droogs
Not the Sharpest Moderator in the box
Apologies first, this may well be a long one. :roll:
I am so glad this thread appeared, it really hammers home how ignorant the general public are to what is happening within the Battery Electric Vehicle (BEV) field. I, as I've said many times, am a greenie and always have been (only ever voted for the Green Party since turning 18 way back in '86) but here is the dychotomy I'm also a massive petrol-head. Apart from my first car (Mk1 Opel Kadett SR 1.2), I have never owned a petrol vehicle that was not a V6 or diesel that was less than 2.5l as my main daily car until last year.
I was shall we say offered a new career opportunity last year thanks to Boris and his ilk and I chose to go with the PHV route. I got my private hire licence and as my car was just outside the permitted age range for using as a taxi, chose to use a lease vehicle and that is an electric car. The company I have been working for use leafs and now MG ZS evs. I have used the MG mostly and it has been fantastic to the point that I am now in the process of getting my own and on boarding with Uber in Edinburgh.
I have on average covered 218 miles per day per shift in a car that ONLY has a range of 160 miles and the car is used by 3 drivers and is in constant use. So over the course of 24 hours it has covered on average 450 miles a day, Remember it ONLY has 160 miles of range.
HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?!!!!!! I hear you all exclaim
Easy, Lets answer that in everyone's favourite way bullet points (hammer) :
1. The car takes roughly 40 minutes to recharge from 20% to 80%, For those who don't know, we don't use the full capacity of the rechargeable batteries as to do so would drastically shorten the life of the batteries. So we generally try to keep it in the at most 10 - 90% areas as this allows for longer life but also more importantly shorter charging times.
This is due to the fact that the batteries basically gorge themselves on electricity at the start of the recharge process and then struggle to ram in the last little bit at the end (apparently it's "fisiks don't ya know")
So this means that I as a driver get to have a nice break and bit to eat in comfort during a shift while the car refuels at the same time.
2. Where do you do that? Well, as it is not my car and I'm not going to be using my house electricity for that now am I, I take it to one of these apparently NON-EXISTENT charge points that everyone claims is not there. Just to put people minds at rest, pay close attention now THERE ARE MORE PUBLIC BEV CHARGE POINTS IN THE UK THAN THERE ARE PETROL STATIONS. Some you pay for and some are free.
Talking of how we do in the highlands of Scotland, it's bloody marvellous, is what it is. Scotland in general has a much better organised and extant charging infrastructure that England does. So far I have found that I have not been more than 40 miles from a charging station at any point in the numerous times I have been in the wilds of remote areas. More and more Inns and rest service areas that are non roadside cafe's are providing free slow charge facilities (they charge at the same rate as a house charger 7Kw but some have 11Kw. There are a few enterprising chaps fitting rapid chargers in their car parks and making a little profit off of you getting a full charge in 40 minutes and while eating their lovely grubb. When I say profit I mean they charge you a few pence per unit more than it costs them, still far cheaper than petrol/diesel though. Below is the Chargeplace Scotland map link, this is just for the "government" funded/administered network:
https://chargeplacescotland.org/new-map/
You may be a bit surprised at what is around even this early in the adoption of the technology.
Now I am about to get my very own BEV and yet I live in a flat with absolutely no parking anywhere near it, am I mad? No, I have plenty of public fast and rapid chargers that I can use, yes it will be more expensive that if i lived in a house with a drive etc but it will still be nearly 80% cheaper than have to pay for the running costs of an Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) care.
EH? How can it be when they're sooo much more expensive to buy? No they are not. Yes they have a greater financial outlay at the start BUT as they have none of the ICE crap to look after they do not have the expense of maintenance that an ICE car has. They still have to eventually have an MOT and will eventually (as more people adopt using them) pay for a Road Fund Licence, but overall their general maintenance costs are negligible compared to what we are used to.
When you as a private individual buy a BEV you are given the option to take advantage of some grants that help you pay for getting a charging station fitted at home. Now if like me you live in a flat or you home's electrical wiring will not be up to supplying one then you can still claim the grants and pay for a unit and have that fitted once you carry out remedial works or move. As I rent a workshop that is a few miles away from my flat but has private off-road parking I will probably have my slow charge unit fitted there.
3. With regard to battery technology, have a look at the bio of Prof Googenough, he basically created the modern era regarding btty usage. As an interesting side note the chap who invented the NiMH btty did so with the main thrust that it would be used to power BEVs and he thought that it was going to when Chrysler and GM bought the patents from him for millions, however they then sold it on to a petrol company Chevron. Who did not let it be used for cars. Watch the film "Who Killed the Electric Car?"
4. Regarding towing a BEV can do so easily but yes the problem is that in terms of range it is bad as the battery drains very quickly. But the power density of batteries is getting better all the time and Prof Goodenough if correct has a good chance of defeating that problem with the glass batteries.
One solution would be to make trailers that have a battery module in the chassis to help extend range.
5.Norway has already banned the sale of ICE vehicles from 2025 and is talking about banning the resale of used ICE by 2035 as well. We are being left behind. China has the largest BEV sector right now. More BEVs are sold there than the rest of the world combined. If you buy an ICE version of a car in China rather than the electric version , you must then pay an additional $15K US in tax to get you number plate where as it's free for BEV. They have the largest BEV bus operators in the world and use induction charging at bus stop(New Bosch Drills) to charge the buses. Why can't we?
6. From what I have seen and found out most of the younger generation these days are not learning to drive. They are in fact using their cash for other things and using ridesharing instead. Hence the uptake of Uber and Lyft etc. They are far more comfortable with the idea of autonomous vehicles. i think it will be a city/country split in the future, where robocabs are used almost exclusively in urban areas and autonomous capable driven BEVs will be the general rule in the countryside.
7. Looking at commercial vehicles upto the large Crafter/Sprinter LWB type of thing, they are available now with around 100 miles of range. PAH you say THATS USELESS. Well no it's not. Extensive reasearch shows the vast majority ie over 70% of such vehicles cover less that 100 miles per day and that includes delivery drivers such as Amazon and Asda. As battery density improves so will the range for a given weight. But for those long distance van drivers they may find that other transport means take over and that they are not needed. If they are then that is where HFC cars will possibly be used (its about using the right tech in the right place). However the HFC has been promised to be around 20 years away for the last 40 and is still 20 years away. We can not wait any longer.
Tesla are about to have a Battery Day explaining what their medium and long term strategy is. Many think that they have been working with the Good Prof and will announce something big. Explains all the share fluctuations recently.
So the ICE is dead tech and will die over the next decade, probably sooner. The oil companies are said to spend 2 billion a week to put out disinformation and doubt about EVs and such tech. That is only an average days profit for them. They spend this as each week they delay is a bonus. They have been very succesful at delaying this transition but no more. People are learning and even if being able to have your kids breath and not die of horrible diseases caused by the crap big oil makes is not enough of an incentive to change the fact that we are entering a technological convergence of different fields that will totally disrupt the status quo and enable dirt cheap power for transport is. The ;fact that many areas are making it compulsary to have proper insulation in new buildings and that they must have solar capture systems as well will only push the speed of change forward.
Hope that helps answer some of your questions Keith
rgds
I am so glad this thread appeared, it really hammers home how ignorant the general public are to what is happening within the Battery Electric Vehicle (BEV) field. I, as I've said many times, am a greenie and always have been (only ever voted for the Green Party since turning 18 way back in '86) but here is the dychotomy I'm also a massive petrol-head. Apart from my first car (Mk1 Opel Kadett SR 1.2), I have never owned a petrol vehicle that was not a V6 or diesel that was less than 2.5l as my main daily car until last year.
I was shall we say offered a new career opportunity last year thanks to Boris and his ilk and I chose to go with the PHV route. I got my private hire licence and as my car was just outside the permitted age range for using as a taxi, chose to use a lease vehicle and that is an electric car. The company I have been working for use leafs and now MG ZS evs. I have used the MG mostly and it has been fantastic to the point that I am now in the process of getting my own and on boarding with Uber in Edinburgh.
I have on average covered 218 miles per day per shift in a car that ONLY has a range of 160 miles and the car is used by 3 drivers and is in constant use. So over the course of 24 hours it has covered on average 450 miles a day, Remember it ONLY has 160 miles of range.
HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?!!!!!! I hear you all exclaim
Easy, Lets answer that in everyone's favourite way bullet points (hammer) :
1. The car takes roughly 40 minutes to recharge from 20% to 80%, For those who don't know, we don't use the full capacity of the rechargeable batteries as to do so would drastically shorten the life of the batteries. So we generally try to keep it in the at most 10 - 90% areas as this allows for longer life but also more importantly shorter charging times.
This is due to the fact that the batteries basically gorge themselves on electricity at the start of the recharge process and then struggle to ram in the last little bit at the end (apparently it's "fisiks don't ya know")
So this means that I as a driver get to have a nice break and bit to eat in comfort during a shift while the car refuels at the same time.
2. Where do you do that? Well, as it is not my car and I'm not going to be using my house electricity for that now am I, I take it to one of these apparently NON-EXISTENT charge points that everyone claims is not there. Just to put people minds at rest, pay close attention now THERE ARE MORE PUBLIC BEV CHARGE POINTS IN THE UK THAN THERE ARE PETROL STATIONS. Some you pay for and some are free.
Talking of how we do in the highlands of Scotland, it's bloody marvellous, is what it is. Scotland in general has a much better organised and extant charging infrastructure that England does. So far I have found that I have not been more than 40 miles from a charging station at any point in the numerous times I have been in the wilds of remote areas. More and more Inns and rest service areas that are non roadside cafe's are providing free slow charge facilities (they charge at the same rate as a house charger 7Kw but some have 11Kw. There are a few enterprising chaps fitting rapid chargers in their car parks and making a little profit off of you getting a full charge in 40 minutes and while eating their lovely grubb. When I say profit I mean they charge you a few pence per unit more than it costs them, still far cheaper than petrol/diesel though. Below is the Chargeplace Scotland map link, this is just for the "government" funded/administered network:
https://chargeplacescotland.org/new-map/
You may be a bit surprised at what is around even this early in the adoption of the technology.
Now I am about to get my very own BEV and yet I live in a flat with absolutely no parking anywhere near it, am I mad? No, I have plenty of public fast and rapid chargers that I can use, yes it will be more expensive that if i lived in a house with a drive etc but it will still be nearly 80% cheaper than have to pay for the running costs of an Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) care.
EH? How can it be when they're sooo much more expensive to buy? No they are not. Yes they have a greater financial outlay at the start BUT as they have none of the ICE crap to look after they do not have the expense of maintenance that an ICE car has. They still have to eventually have an MOT and will eventually (as more people adopt using them) pay for a Road Fund Licence, but overall their general maintenance costs are negligible compared to what we are used to.
When you as a private individual buy a BEV you are given the option to take advantage of some grants that help you pay for getting a charging station fitted at home. Now if like me you live in a flat or you home's electrical wiring will not be up to supplying one then you can still claim the grants and pay for a unit and have that fitted once you carry out remedial works or move. As I rent a workshop that is a few miles away from my flat but has private off-road parking I will probably have my slow charge unit fitted there.
3. With regard to battery technology, have a look at the bio of Prof Googenough, he basically created the modern era regarding btty usage. As an interesting side note the chap who invented the NiMH btty did so with the main thrust that it would be used to power BEVs and he thought that it was going to when Chrysler and GM bought the patents from him for millions, however they then sold it on to a petrol company Chevron. Who did not let it be used for cars. Watch the film "Who Killed the Electric Car?"
4. Regarding towing a BEV can do so easily but yes the problem is that in terms of range it is bad as the battery drains very quickly. But the power density of batteries is getting better all the time and Prof Goodenough if correct has a good chance of defeating that problem with the glass batteries.
One solution would be to make trailers that have a battery module in the chassis to help extend range.
5.Norway has already banned the sale of ICE vehicles from 2025 and is talking about banning the resale of used ICE by 2035 as well. We are being left behind. China has the largest BEV sector right now. More BEVs are sold there than the rest of the world combined. If you buy an ICE version of a car in China rather than the electric version , you must then pay an additional $15K US in tax to get you number plate where as it's free for BEV. They have the largest BEV bus operators in the world and use induction charging at bus stop(New Bosch Drills) to charge the buses. Why can't we?
6. From what I have seen and found out most of the younger generation these days are not learning to drive. They are in fact using their cash for other things and using ridesharing instead. Hence the uptake of Uber and Lyft etc. They are far more comfortable with the idea of autonomous vehicles. i think it will be a city/country split in the future, where robocabs are used almost exclusively in urban areas and autonomous capable driven BEVs will be the general rule in the countryside.
7. Looking at commercial vehicles upto the large Crafter/Sprinter LWB type of thing, they are available now with around 100 miles of range. PAH you say THATS USELESS. Well no it's not. Extensive reasearch shows the vast majority ie over 70% of such vehicles cover less that 100 miles per day and that includes delivery drivers such as Amazon and Asda. As battery density improves so will the range for a given weight. But for those long distance van drivers they may find that other transport means take over and that they are not needed. If they are then that is where HFC cars will possibly be used (its about using the right tech in the right place). However the HFC has been promised to be around 20 years away for the last 40 and is still 20 years away. We can not wait any longer.
Tesla are about to have a Battery Day explaining what their medium and long term strategy is. Many think that they have been working with the Good Prof and will announce something big. Explains all the share fluctuations recently.
So the ICE is dead tech and will die over the next decade, probably sooner. The oil companies are said to spend 2 billion a week to put out disinformation and doubt about EVs and such tech. That is only an average days profit for them. They spend this as each week they delay is a bonus. They have been very succesful at delaying this transition but no more. People are learning and even if being able to have your kids breath and not die of horrible diseases caused by the crap big oil makes is not enough of an incentive to change the fact that we are entering a technological convergence of different fields that will totally disrupt the status quo and enable dirt cheap power for transport is. The ;fact that many areas are making it compulsary to have proper insulation in new buildings and that they must have solar capture systems as well will only push the speed of change forward.
Hope that helps answer some of your questions Keith
rgds
RogerS
Established Member
Now all you have to do, Keith, is convince my SWMBO !
Style - none unless it's a Tesla
Performance - poor unless it's a Tesla
Handling - poor unless it's a Tesla
And she is a worrier. You'd push her into an early grave if she had to fret about charging points. Which she will. If it was just me then I'd probably buy an EV. If I had the funds. Which I don't.
Style - none unless it's a Tesla
Performance - poor unless it's a Tesla
Handling - poor unless it's a Tesla
And she is a worrier. You'd push her into an early grave if she had to fret about charging points. Which she will. If it was just me then I'd probably buy an EV. If I had the funds. Which I don't.
Droogs
Not the Sharpest Moderator in the box
DO YOU WANT TO KNOW MORE?
the check out these youtube channels
Fullycharged
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzz4Co ... 9ZAvRMhW2A
EVM
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCigsK5 ... xkw/videos
Bjorn Nyland
https://www.youtube.com/user/bjornnyland/videos
Transport Evolved
https://www.youtube.com/user/transportevolved/videos
and
Now you Know
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMFmrc ... 0OA/videos
the check out these youtube channels
Fullycharged
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzz4Co ... 9ZAvRMhW2A
EVM
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCigsK5 ... xkw/videos
Bjorn Nyland
https://www.youtube.com/user/bjornnyland/videos
Transport Evolved
https://www.youtube.com/user/transportevolved/videos
and
Now you Know
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMFmrc ... 0OA/videos
Trainee neophyte
Established Member
Yojevol":1v93uvsh said:
Wow! I was out by lots! 45 is actually achievable, even if it is a big ask. My number was 20 times too big (notice I assume I am wrong - this really isn't my area of expertise). It's still going to turn everything on its head, especially if oil is outlawed.
RogerS
Established Member
Droogs":10vy6fmk said:
Actually I think that statement is meaningless. Does it factor in the number of pumps at a petrol station. Be that as it may, the bottom line is that you are correct but by no stretch of the imagination deserving BLOCK CAPITALS!
Number of petrol stations 8385 (2019 source wiki)
Number of EV charging locations (a far more relevant stat) - 10913 (source ZapMap)
Farmer Giles
The biggest tool in the box
RogerS":2dteqdd2 said:
We don't have the faster 60kw , just the 40kw Leaf and it is no slouch and handles fine too. Leaves most ICE cars for dead away from the lights. Inside it's very plush, outside a bit bland as all Nissan's are.
It's all relative. The Leaf is 0-60 mph is around 7.5 seconds which is a respectable time. But even the slowest Model 3 is 5.3 seconds 0-60 - Tesla really don't have much competition there.Farmer Giles":199cotd0 said:
Trevanion
Greatest Of All Time
We used to have a vehicle that ran on LPG, the range anxiety for that was real! :lol: You probably couldn’t use LPG for long runs anymore as it seems petrol stations are tearing out the tanks more and more now.
Out of curiosity because we’ve got thunder rumbling as I’m typing this and recently had a couple of thing a in the house explode, what happens if your car is connected to the grid when lightning strikes?
Out of curiosity because we’ve got thunder rumbling as I’m typing this and recently had a couple of thing a in the house explode, what happens if your car is connected to the grid when lightning strikes?
Woody2Shoes
Impressive Member
Lets say your ev has a 200 mile range, then it would take you 3 to 4 hours to use that. Do you not stop for a cup of tea (and/or a pee!) after than sort of period?Rorschach":251e8i96 said:
EVs are not perfect but they are already a no-brainer for a lot of people and are getting significantly better over time.
loftyhermes
Established Member
Just had a look on the zap map site and it seems that the charging systems use 3 different plugs. No one standard plug, does that mean that you need 3 leads to take advantage of all the charging points?
Woody2Shoes
Impressive Member
The electronics in a car charger are pretty sophisticated and designed to ensure the safety of the user and the grid, for example many have their own earthing point.Trevanion":1kpkye0a said:
Woody2Shoes
Impressive Member
The leads are usually on the charger. Cars have different types of receptacle on them. Most recent ones have more than one basic difference being speed of transfer.loftyhermes":2vzjs4tn said:
Woody2Shoes
Impressive Member
Not sure what your mrs considers to be style but Mercedes do an all electric crv which looks pretty good. Performance and handling are surprisingly good and as always you get what you pay for.RogerS":21tzzhgs said:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3JOTiDlNUm4
Or perhaps a kia e nero
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m4OrOc_sXrU
Gosh, this one took off.
There are so many variables in this subject you could write a book.
I bought my VW e Golf on the premise that I would never have to use a public charger for now. I have a garage with power where I can charge overnight, I have a range of 120 miles maximum and I have a petrol car as well that basically sits around waiting to be used on the occasion of a long trip.
But that’s me and it works for me. But there are countless others that are constrained by their personal situation for whom it will not work.
Why does it have to be so all or nothing?Why not encourage a transition to more eco friendly forms of transport rather than this draconian banning of all ICE vehicles?
Anyway, my pet hate is the amount of time it takes to charge on public chargers. PITA, and until that is sorted out I will always have an ICE car.
There are so many variables in this subject you could write a book.
I bought my VW e Golf on the premise that I would never have to use a public charger for now. I have a garage with power where I can charge overnight, I have a range of 120 miles maximum and I have a petrol car as well that basically sits around waiting to be used on the occasion of a long trip.
But that’s me and it works for me. But there are countless others that are constrained by their personal situation for whom it will not work.
Why does it have to be so all or nothing?Why not encourage a transition to more eco friendly forms of transport rather than this draconian banning of all ICE vehicles?
Anyway, my pet hate is the amount of time it takes to charge on public chargers. PITA, and until that is sorted out I will always have an ICE car.
Trainee neophyte
Established Member
I would love an electric vehicle - I would save €3-€4,000 a year in fuel alone, plus all the servicing costs (last year's engine rebuild was €2,000). I could buy a few solar panels and make my own charging system, for peanuts - I actually have sunshine, too, so for 10 months of the year it would be pretty much guaranteed to work - free fuel!
Only 2 problems for me: one, I can't afford a brand new vehicle, and two I need a pickup truck, or at the very least the ability to tow a ton, or more if possible. 4x4 is also a must. I am rather enamoured of the Mitsubishi Outlander, but being a hybrid it is even more expensive. Allegedly it does 28 miles on battery only, which would be the vast majority of my trips. Seems a no brainer, and the finance could be paid for by the saving in fuel but as I wouldn't be any better off, what is the point?
All bit of a conundrum.
Only 2 problems for me: one, I can't afford a brand new vehicle, and two I need a pickup truck, or at the very least the ability to tow a ton, or more if possible. 4x4 is also a must. I am rather enamoured of the Mitsubishi Outlander, but being a hybrid it is even more expensive. Allegedly it does 28 miles on battery only, which would be the vast majority of my trips. Seems a no brainer, and the finance could be paid for by the saving in fuel but as I wouldn't be any better off, what is the point?
All bit of a conundrum.
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