Electric vehicles - again

[Droogs]

Yet again Jacob has no clue. The are quite a few EVs for around the UK price average of an ICE car the MG4 is 25 - 28K and has a range of ~220 - 280 miles. That is bang on the price average and will more than meet the needs for over 85% of UK drivers.

 

[selectortone]

I was speaking to an electrician who been on a course about installing charging points. He said the lecturer said at the beginning before we go much further what I'm going to tell you doesn't really apply - around here at least the infrastructure won't support anything like the loading.

That's debatable. A lot of charging takes place overnight when power demand is at its lowest. In fact, EVs may one day act as reservoirs for wind power.

For the first 20 years or so of ICE cars drivers had to take fuel cans to the local chemist. Infrastructure evolves with demand. What's better, plugging in your car at home or queuing at the petrol station?

There's so much negativity in this thread- as if we didn't have enough to be depressed about.

 

[Just4Fun]

Why put all your eggs in one basket, have a hybrid and you can always complete the journey. Hybrids are a good all round compromise because around towns and cities it can be electric but out on the open road it can be ICE so no pollution from the vehicle in traffic jams.

A friend recently acquired a hybrid Audi. Initially he was just commuting locally and loved it. Then a couple of weeks ago he hooked up his trailer and set off on a longer journey. He does this journey, with trailer, regularly in his diesel van, and it is no problem. Well, the hybrid ran out of electrical power before he got outside the ring road, so for the rest of the day he was using the ICE. The problem was the fuel tank is much smaller than on a pure ICE version of the car, and he had to refuel 4 times to complete his journey. He was not impressed and is now selling the car. Yes, he could complete the journey, but it was a pain.

 

[Just4Fun]

What's better, plugging in your car at home or queuing at the petrol station?

Avoiding fuel stations is a big attraction for me, certainly. I would welcome that and if I had an EV I could easily have a home charger, meaning that for me an EV would be a time saver. Not everyone is in that position though and someone who has to park their car on the street will have no choice but to use a public charge point. I assume that is likely to take longer than refuelling an ICE car, so for them an EV would need more time.

I am not against EVs but it seems to me they are not yet ready to take over from ICE. Eventually that might happen, but until then I will avoid them.

 

[powertools]

I dont see much point in this debate. The fact (that nobody wants to accept) is that we all need to drive smaller cars that use less energy of any type.

 

[Jacob]

What is missing from public transport is efficiency, ...

What is missing is public control and investment. They do it better abroad.

 

[Jacob]

I dont see much point in this debate. The fact (that nobody wants to accept) is that we all need to drive smaller cars that use less energy of any type.

That is the big issue.
There are simple ways of doing this such as reduced speed limits, fuel rationing, taxing SUVs and fuel wasters out of existence, increased subsidised public transport, support for cycling (electric and human powered) and many other steps - as if there was an emergency in the offing.
n.b. But there IS an emergency in the offing, more threatening than any war has ever been.
So far very little action is being taken and the EV thing is all about how to carry on as normal. It also is pointless until we have sufficient sustainable electricity generation to make it effective in reducing carbon footprints. It's a distraction.

 

[Spectric]

The problem was the fuel tank is much smaller than on a pure ICE version of the car, and he had to refuel 4 times to complete his journey. He was not impressed and is now selling the car. Yes, he could complete the journey, but it was a pain.

Yes this does highlight that in this early stage of change that the OEM's are still not getting everything right and are learning as they go, the same process happened with the ICE but many decades ago.

 

[sploo]

Public transport is the future and needs no technological advance.

You're missing the fundamental problem of public transport though; it's full of the public. And I hate people

 

[sploo]

Why put all your eggs in one basket, have a hybrid and you can always complete the journey. Hybrids are a good all round compromise because around towns and cities it can be electric but out on the open road it can be ICE so no pollution from the vehicle in traffic jams.

I thought the problem with hybrids (at least the early ones) was that you ended up with a car with a small ICE engine that's noisy (because it has to rev high to produce any power), doesn't get great fuel economy because it's lugging around the extra weight of the battery and motor, and doesn't tend to have a particularly good electric range because the need to carry an ICE (and related "plumbing") means there's no room for a big battery. At least, that's how I remember reviews of the early hybrids (basically, the worst of both worlds). That could have changed by now I guess.

 

[Jameshow]

I thought the problem with hybrids (at least the early ones) was that you ended up with a car with a small ICE engine that's noisy (because it has to rev high to produce any power), doesn't get great fuel economy because it's lugging around the extra weight of the battery and motor, and doesn't tend to have a particularly good electric range because the need to carry an ICE (and related "plumbing") means there's no room for a big battery. At least, that's how I remember reviews of the early hybrids (basically, the worst of both worlds). That could have changed by now I guess.

Pretty much!

Diesel hybrids would be a better idea electric for town diesel for long journeys...

Volvo and mb made one.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Many seem to think the distribution and generation network has insufficient capacity to transition to EV. In 2030, sales of ICE will stop. Until ~2040 there will be a residue of ICE on the road.

The transition to EV will happen over around 20 years. It does need a coherent investment plan - but it is completely feasible.

The average mileage per car in the UK is 9000pa. Most owners will need to charge once or twice per week. A 7KW domestic charge point will comfortably recharge an EV overnight. A fast charge may take an hour.

The concern that the entire country will all demand their cars charged at the same time of the same day and "blow" the distribution network is absurd.

This all assumes car usage will remain largely unchanged. However, there are some pressures - eg: more work from home, online shopping, etc will have an impact.

Without intrusive regulation I would not expect increased public transport to reduce personal car usage.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Many seem to think the distribution and generation network has insufficient capacity to transition to EV?

Many know the distribution and generation network has insufficient capacity already.

 

[Spectric]

I can recall that down in Essex they had to upgrade a large 400Kv substation just to provide the capacity for the extra housing that was going up in every direction, that was before EV's were on the radar and also restring miles of pylons to balance the loadings, again before EV's so they were pushing the boundaries then. If you now think that during sudden high demands on the grid like when something on Tv has a break and we all turn our kettles on the national grid uses that welsh hydro plant to fill the gap then you can see where we stand. Kettles turned on for a few minutes or EV's being charged for hours, that hydro plant would drain the top reservoir.

 

[Ollie78]

The success of small electric vehicles has been demonstrated in Taiwan. Small scooters and mopeds were extremely common forms of transport in the city, this caused horrendous smog as many were old and 2 stroke as well.
They bought in a system of electric scooters with removable battery packs, when your battery runs out you can swap it for a charged one at stations around the city, it has proven popular and reduced the urban smog a lot.
The removable battery seems like it solves a lot of the issues of charge time but is impractical in a 2.5 ton SUV (though it has been touted as an option for HGV`s with special stations). I think lightweight is certainly the future of electric vehicles.

I think the barriers to EV uptake are firstly cost, there is no possible way I could buy any EV on offer (our car is 20 years old but functioning perfectly well, my van 10 years old and still just about OK ). To replace them both with new similar electric versions would cost nearly £100,000.
Secondly if you don`t have your own driveway charging is very impractical for now, terraced houses or flats it`s impossible to home charge.
Thirdly the cost of electricity being insane right now, this month it became cheaper to run a petrol car than an ev for the first time, hopefully this is temporary.

Personally I don`t think there is much "green" about electric vehicles, using tons of expensive resources from around the world does not reduce emission overall.
I think converting existing cars to electric versions if the engines die is a good option. And a good way to resto mod classic cars.

There is certainly a lot of uptake in small stand up scooters (despite complete illegality ) and ebikes where I live anyway, showing that small stuff works well with batteries.

Ollie

 

[sploo]

Many seem to think the distribution and generation network has insufficient capacity to transition to EV. In 2030, sales of ICE will stop. Until ~2040 there will be a residue of ICE on the road.

The transition to EV will happen over around 20 years. It does need a coherent investment plan - but it is completely feasible.

The average mileage per car in the UK is 9000pa. Most owners will need to charge once or twice per week. A 7KW domestic charge point will comfortably recharge an EV overnight. A fast charge may take an hour.

The concern that the entire country will all demand their cars charged at the same time of the same day and "blow" the distribution network is absurd.

This all assumes car usage will remain largely unchanged. However, there are some pressures - eg: more work from home, online shopping, etc will have an impact.

Without intrusive regulation I would not expect increased public transport to reduce personal car usage.

This should be handled by the newer specs for EV charging; adding significantly more "smarts" between the car, the charger, and "the network". ISO 15118-20:2022 contains all the details if you fancy some bedtime reading

 

[John Brown]

The success of small electric vehicles has been demonstrated in Taiwan. Small scooters and mopeds were extremely common forms of transport in the city, this caused horrendous smog as many were old and 2 stroke as well.
They bought in a system of electric scooters with removable battery packs, when your battery runs out you can swap it for a charged one at stations around the city, it has proven popular and reduced the urban smog a lot.
The removable battery seems like it solves a lot of the issues of charge time but is impractical in a 2.5 ton SUV (though it has been touted as an option for HGV`s with special stations). I think lightweight is certainly the future of electric vehicles.

I think the barriers to EV uptake are firstly cost, there is no possible way I could buy any EV on offer (our car is 20 years old but functioning perfectly well, my van 10 years old and still just about OK ). To replace them both with new similar electric versions would cost nearly £100,000.
Secondly if you don`t have your own driveway charging is very impractical for now, terraced houses or flats it`s impossible to home charge.
Thirdly the cost of electricity being insane right now, this month it became cheaper to run a petrol car than an ev for the first time, hopefully this is temporary.

Personally I don`t think there is much "green" about electric vehicles, using tons of expensive resources from around the world does not reduce emission overall.
I think converting existing cars to electric versions if the engines die is a good option. And a good way to resto mod classic cars.

There is certainly a lot of uptake in small stand up scooters (despite complete illegality ) and ebikes where I live anyway, showing that small stuff works well with batteries.

Ollie

It doesn't really matter what you personally think. The people who have done the sums say that EVs have about 1/4 the carbon footprint of ICEs over their lifetime, and that's including manufacture.
They may not suit everyone, of course, but things progress.

 

[Ollie78]

It doesn't really matter what you personally think. The people who have done the sums say that EVs have about 1/4 the carbon footprint of ICEs over their lifetime, and that's including manufacture.
They may not suit everyone, of course, but things progress.

Can the "people" who have done these sums be trusted statistics is the art of data manipulation after all.
Carbon footprint is not the only concern, there is also the amount of rare earth minerals currently required until carbon supercapacitors, air/iron, sodium ion or whatever technology actually wins the race to the next stage of energy density.
Keeping already made cars going is better than any new vehicle electric or not in some ways.

I would love an Arrival van for work, I think they have some fantastic design details and innovative structural design but it is a pipe dream for me and most "working peasents".
I am not against progress but I do think the distance to go is further than we think, there is so much infrastructure that needs to be changed and upgraded, The government are not the people who should be doing it ( just look at the electrification of the trains shambles ) unfortunately they are in charge.


Ollie

 

[Ozi]

https://www.mygridgb.co.uk/electric-car-myths-debunked/

There is our national usage of electricity over the last 28 days. Much higher in the day than at night, we have a lot of capacity, not in all areas admittedly but what we really lack is storage. Solve that problem and there is enough to run small cars. Just stop moving 2 tons of metal when what you need to move is one person!

 

[Ozi]

I thought the problem with hybrids (at least the early ones) was that you ended up with a car with a small ICE engine that's noisy (because it has to rev high to produce any power), doesn't get great fuel economy because it's lugging around the extra weight of the battery and motor, and doesn't tend to have a particularly good electric range because the need to carry an ICE (and related "plumbing") means there's no room for a big battery. At least, that's how I remember reviews of the early hybrids (basically, the worst of both worlds). That could have changed by now I guess.

Some small self charging hybrids currently get 90 mpg, the batteries last longer than the car and they are close to the point where a vehicle is considered too quiet and the speaker they have to fit so you can here them when moving in EV needs to run at some IC engine outputs as well. PHEVs are a different matter, but they are improving.