Edge joining boards (or pieces thereof)

[bp122]

Hello all,

A 4-topic newbie here!

I had a a few strips of off cuts that a friend of mine gave me to practise joinery on.
Among the strips, I have a tulipwood piece which is 5 inches wide and 1 inch thick.

I looked at one of the push blocks for table saw on youtube, which was a simple design with two tapered ends on the top and a nice flat face at the bottom.

Anyway, to get the extra height for the handle part of the push stick / block, I thought of cutting a small piece from this tulipwood piece and gluing it edge ways , which I cut and smeared some tool station PVA I had, clamped it upto put pressure on the gluing surfaces and also sandwiched this in between two bits of melamine covered chipboard, to keep them from bowing and used a couple of clamps.

The next day, I came to see how it went, after removing the clamps, I tried to break it (as you would break chocolate)with with little force and it comepletely came apart.
Is this normal? If not, is it the quality of PVA glue I used or the insufficient clamping pressure? would it be tulipwood itself (I had never heard of it until I got it) Or does this kind of joint need some kind of a reinforcement (dowel, biscuit, domino, tenon)?

Please enlighten me.

 

[Rich C]

Which edge did you glue to which edge? If you're gluing long grain (i.e. not end grain) faces together then you should get a very strong joint. If one side is end grain you'll need some joinery in there, tenoning it in would be a classic joint, biscuits or dowels for something quicker and more modern.

 

[thetyreman]

if the joint came apart easily something is seriously wrong, it's very likely that the wood is too wet, or something went wrong with not enough clamping pressure, also how did you actually joint the edges? I use a no7 hand plane that is razor sharp on both long edges, it shouldn't need anything extra like dowels if done correctly.

 

[bp122]

if the joint came apart easily something is seriously wrong, it's very likely that the wood is too wet, or something went wrong with not enough clamping pressure, also how did you actually joint the edges? I use a no7 hand plane that is razor sharp on both long edges, it shouldn't need anything extra like dowels if done correctly.

It has a planed edge from the source, which is very flat and smooth. I can't tell the exact moisture or anything, but it sounds like a dry timber when I knock the two pieces together (like a cricket ball hitting a bat or using a hardwood mallet on a workbench) I'll try and redo it tonight, possibly use a couple of more clamps and see how that goes.

Which edge did you glue to which edge? If you're gluing long grain (i.e. not end grain) faces together then you should get a very strong joint. If one side is end grain you'll need some joinery in there, tenoning it in would be a classic joint, biscuits or dowels for something quicker and more modern.

It is long grain to long grain. As I said in my original post, I'm not sure if it is the wood (I read somewhere that not all woods take glue the same way) or the glue or just my wrong technique (most likely)

 

[thetyreman]

if the joint came apart easily something is seriously wrong, it's very likely that the wood is too wet, or something went wrong with not enough clamping pressure, also how did you actually joint the edges? I use a no7 hand plane that is razor sharp on both long edges, it shouldn't need anything extra like dowels if done correctly.

It has a planed edge from the source, which is very flat and smooth. I can't tell the exact moisture or anything, but it sounds like a dry timber when I knock the two pieces together (like a cricket ball hitting a bat or using a hardwood mallet on a workbench) I'll try and redo it tonight, possibly use a couple of more clamps and see how that goes.

ok but what kind of source? machined surface or hand planed? how are you measuring that's very flat? have you got a straight edge? also what kind of clamps are you using?

 

[Steve Maskery]

As a general rule, solid wood, of any kind, is not an ideal material to use for pushsticks. MDF would be a better choice.

 

[MikeG.]

This isn't going to be about clamping pressure*. If the glue joint was long-grain to long-grain then just rubbing the two glue-smeared pieces together and setting them aside for the night should produce a very strong bond which you'd struggle to break by hand. I suspect, then, that you haven't got properly prepared edges.

Your edges need to be planed flat, and not be a sawn finish. They also need to be square with each other. It could be that in clamping boards across them to keep everything flat that you actually forced the joint apart. This could be the case if one or both of the edges wasn't at 90 degrees to the faces.

The other thing which could account for your failure is glue that has de-natured by being stored subject to freezing. I've got some PVA which has developed a thick mould in its tin, but it still works. It must be 10 years old, so age isn't going to be an issue.

I suggest you examine your edges very carefully, and get them flat and smooth. Then try again without too much clamping (one clamp is enough). Also, send us some piccies.

*Including the old chestnut (=myth) of over-tightening leading to squeezing too much glue out of the join.

 

[transatlantic]

Assuming there were no huge gaps between the joints (PVA is not a gap filling glue), it might be the glue itself.

Try it again on some scrap pine or something

 

[MikeG.]

As a general rule, solid wood, of any kind, is not an ideal material to use for pushsticks. MDF would be a better choice.

I've had one pushstick for probably 20 years or more, cut from a single piece of 2x1 PAR pine. Properly thought through with grain direction etc there is no reason why solid wood can't make a perfectly good pushstick. Having said that, I take your point, and ply or MDF is indeed preferable.

 

[Steve Maskery]

As a general rule, solid wood, of any kind, is not an ideal material to use for pushsticks. MDF would be a better choice.

I've had one pushstick for probably 20 years or more, cut from a single piece of 2x1 PAR pine. Properly thought through with grain direction etc there is no reason why solid wood can't make a perfectly good pushstick. Having said that, I take your point, and ply or MDF is indeed preferable.

Yes Mike, provided that nothing ever goes wrong, you can use any material. The problems arise when something does go wrong, despite our best care.

Wood that has a grain can splinter and those splinters can cause puncture wounds in a way that MDF (or plywood) cannot.

Largely irrelevant, but...
I once had the misfortune to be married to a doctor, who recalled as a Junior House Office in a hospital, she was called to see a patient who could not make it to the examination room, and wanted to be seen in a room down the corridor, where he was lying on a trolley. So she stormed off to give this patient a piece of her mind - what on earth was he doing pestering the NHS with a splinter?

It turned out that this "splinter" was part of a gate post that had entered at the wrist and started to exit at the elbow...

 

[bp122]

if the joint came apart easily something is seriously wrong, it's very likely that the wood is too wet, or something went wrong with not enough clamping pressure, also how did you actually joint the edges? I use a no7 hand plane that is razor sharp on both long edges, it shouldn't need anything extra like dowels if done correctly.

It has a planed edge from the source, which is very flat and smooth. I can't tell the exact moisture or anything, but it sounds like a dry timber when I knock the two pieces together (like a cricket ball hitting a bat or using a hardwood mallet on a workbench) I'll try and redo it tonight, possibly use a couple of more clamps and see how that goes.

ok but what kind of source? machined surface or hand planed? how are you measuring that's very flat? have you got a straight edge? also what kind of clamps are you using?

The material came from a timbers merchant, and it is planed from a machine. I held my straight edge against it and it was flat and it is smooth to touch. I used one F clamp in the middle to apply pressure onto the gluing surfaces (perpendicular to the surface), two more clamps to do the melamine sandwich to keep them from bowing. The gluing edge measures 110mm in length.

On another note, there seems to be an issue with my phone, the posts I make on my phone doesn't appear here. I wrote the same response two hours ago and now there is no sign of it
This is the third instance of such a thing.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Numpty question from a numpty: how much glue are you putting on the joint? I have been working on putting enough glue on to not be able to see the grain through the goop. A fair amount, in other words. Then clamp it up, and curse and swear trying to clean up the mess with a damp cloth. Getting the balance between having enough glue to achieve "squeeze-out" when clamping, and having far too much glue, is proving to be a skill that I am struggling to master, but too much seems better than not enough.

 

[bp122]

Assuming there were no huge gaps between the joints (PVA is not a gap filling glue), it might be the glue itself.

Try it again on some scrap pine or something

I shall do that and see what happens. Thanks

This isn't going to be about clamping pressure*. If the glue joint was long-grain to long-grain then just rubbing the two glue-smeared pieces together and setting them aside for the night should produce a very strong bond which you'd struggle to break by hand. I suspect, then, that you haven't got properly prepared edges.

Your edges need to be planed flat, and not be a sawn finish. They also need to be square with each other. It could be that in clamping boards across them to keep everything flat that you actually forced the joint apart. This could be the case if one or both of the edges wasn't at 90 degrees to the faces.

The other thing which could account for your failure is glue that has de-natured by being stored subject to freezing. I've got some PVA which has developed a thick mould in its tin, but it still works. It must be 10 years old, so age isn't going to be an issue.

I suggest you examine your edges very carefully, and get them flat and smooth. Then try again without too much clamping (one clamp is enough). Also, send us some piccies.

*Including the old chestnut (=myth) of over-tightening leading to squeezing too much glue out of the join.

Please see the attached pictures. The pictures show the glue residue AFTER my failed attempt.
I have tried to show how flat and smooth the edges are.
I'll try and fit my face vise (a rusty old one I restored) to my workbench soon, then I can properly hold it for planing etc.

 

[bp122]

Numpty question from a numpty: how much glue are you putting on the joint? I have been working on putting enough glue on to not be able to see the grain through the goop. A fair amount, in other words. Then clamp it up, and curse and swear trying to clean up the mess with a damp cloth. Getting the balance between having enough glue to achieve "squeeze-out" when clamping, and having far too much glue, is proving to be a skill that I am struggling to master, but too much seems better than not enough.

The squeeze out was not a lot, but I covered both surfaces fully. May be that is it, maybe it just wasn't enough.

 

[bp122]

As a general rule, solid wood, of any kind, is not an ideal material to use for pushsticks. MDF would be a better choice.

You are right, of course. However, after making a huge racket about dust and fine dust etc in my other post, I wanted to avoid MDF as much as I could. Would you say Ply is a worthy substitute to MDF in this regard?

 

[Steve Maskery]

I have to say, this really does not make sense. :-k

 

[Steve Maskery]

Would you say Ply is a worthy substitute to MDF in this regard?

Probably - it's unlikely to shatter in the same way, but as I've only ever used MDF, I can't speak from experience, only logic.

 

[MikeG.]

........Please see the attached pictures.......

I'm seeing a really big gap in your first photo. There should be no gap at all. Am I seeing things, or is there some sort of finish on the wood?

 

[Nigel Burden]

Like Mike G, I can see a gap along the edge.

I apply the glue and then rub the two boards together to evenly distribute the glue before clamping up.

Custard has posted an excellent post on edge jointing which does highlight the lengths you need to go to too get a truly flat and square edge. You will find it in this section of the forum.

Nigel.

 

[bp122]

........Please see the attached pictures.......

I'm seeing a really big gap in your first photo. There should be no gap at all. Am I seeing things, or is there some sort of finish on the wood?

The gap is formed by the dried up glue residue. Before, it was very smooth and flat (as you can see in the unglued portion)
So much that I was very pleased to see two pieces of timber as I've seen only on videos where they perfectly mate up!

I have to say, this really does not make sense. :-k

Oh, okay, I thought it was just me.

Has anyone worked with Tulipwood? What was your experience in its joinery?